JO Event specialists

[Geoffrey Taucer]

What about somebody who just wants to do bars? There is no other sport for them. Suppose a girl has injuries or chronic joint problems that make floor and vault problematic. If we allow specialization, they can continue to compete on the events they can still do.

[bogwoppit]

Hay Shawn,

Lets have this chat again in five years when perhaps your DD has struggled with injury for two years, loves the sport, still wants to compete and have all the same opportunities as the healthy gymnasts.

These kids are not Olympics bound, we are talking about JO, and these girls work just as hard.

Read the thread in the parents forum about the little girl who was told that even though she qualified to States, she cannot go due to injury. Now if she could specialize maybe she'd still be going.

Gymnastics is a children's sport on the womens side, there are very few WAG gymnasts competing past 18 years of age. To encourage kids to stay involved is a great thing. Elitism is great, but it isn't lucrative enough to support the coaches in the USA! Diversification is the name of the game, to keep kids in and also to keep people in jobs.

Just another take on it.....

[Livinatthegym]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogwoppit Lets have this chat again in five years when perhaps your DD has struggled with injury for two years, loves the sport, still wants to compete and have all the same opportunities as the healthy gymnasts. These kids are not Olympics bound, we are talking about JO, and these girls work just as hard. Read the thread in the parents forum about the little girl who was told that even though she qualified to States, she cannot go due to injury. Now if she could specialize maybe she'd still be going. Gymnastics is a children's sport on the womens side, there are very few WAG gymnasts competing past 18 years of age. To encourage kids to stay involved is a great thing. Elitism is great, but it isn't lucrative enough to support the coaches in the USA! Diversification is the name of the game, to keep kids in and also to keep people in jobs. Just another take on it.....

Great point, Bog.

Last meet, I watched dd1 warming up vault. She has knee pain resulting from a crazy fall just after her lvl 6 year. Clean MRIs, but that kid can predict weather changes by the pain in her knees. Oh, and landing a tsuk hurts. That kid went down off her last warm-up and stayed there. She rolled off the mat and crawled back to the start of the run. Time to compete, though, she's up and running. Landed that tsuk on both attempts. 9.225. Still, I'm wondering what kind of parent am I to let my child (yes, she's nearly 15, but she's still a CHILD and I can/should override her choices sometimes) stay in this activity.

I'm pretty sure that if my dd1 could train as a specialist (beam/bars) and train a more reasonable number of hours (cuz she wouldn't have to be there for floor/vault), she'd stay in the sport through the rest of high school and do so without single-handedly keeping Advil in business.

If the goal of JO is to keep girls in the sport as long as possible, allowing specialists at the upper levels is definitely the way to go. Gymnastics is s a tough sport, but it's really tough on a bigger body. Not sure on the formula, but extra weight, height equals more stress on the body with each landing. If they stay in the sport long enough, all the competitors are going to suffer injuries. Even if they don't have the "big fall" they're likely to see some overuse stuff happening. Why not let the kid with shoulder trouble compete without bars or the kid with knee pain skip the vault?

[Shawn]

Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play? I don't have a problem with gymnastics specialists, per se, but it doesn't seem fair to allow a specialist, who can spend 20 hours a week just working on bars, to compete ( and probably win) against a girl who spends that same 20 hours in training but is training in all events. She'd have to train 80 hours a week to get the same bar time that the specialist can get. Perhaps the solution is to set meets, or specific sessions within the meets, for specialists, rather than have them compete against girls who are training all-around.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play? I don't have a problem with gymnastics specialists, per se, but it doesn't seem fair to allow a specialist, who can spend 20 hours a week just working on bars, to compete ( and probably win) against a girl who spends that same 20 hours in training but is training in all events. She'd have to train 80 hours a week to get the same bar time that the specialist can get. Perhaps the solution is to set meets, or specific sessions within the meets, for specialists, rather than have them compete against girls who are training all-around.

But this goes back to what bogwoppit was saying earlier; gymnasts ALREADY don't spend equal amounts of time on each event. Some practice more than others. That's life.

Besides, your assumption that specialists would dominate the individual events is demonstrably innaccurate. Look at boys' JO. Sometimes specialists win their events. Sometimes all-arunders win those same events. Placement on individual events does not noticably skew in favor of specialists.

[sbl4804]

[quote=Shawn;22023]Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play?


Strange analogy. I wouldn't expect a kid who can't run to play soccer, but I wouldn't expect someone that excels as a goalie be forced to play forward. Every gymnasts has their own strengths and weaknesses, why not let them participate in what they are good at? I also would point out that this should only apply to the upper levels of gymnastics. Everyone participating should have to be able to at least perform the basics of the sport.

[bogwoppit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play? I don't have a problem with gymnastics specialists, per se, but it doesn't seem fair to allow a specialist, who can spend 20 hours a week just working on bars, to compete ( and probably win) against a girl who spends that same 20 hours in training but is training in all events. She'd have to train 80 hours a week to get the same bar time that the specialist can get. Perhaps the solution is to set meets, or specific sessions within the meets, for specialists, rather than have them compete against girls who are training all-around.

What I know for sure is.... my DD is injured. She goes to the gym and she trains beam and bars, whilst the other girls train vault and floor she has to do conditioning or nothing. She is in the gym 11 hours a week, she competes against girls who train 20+ hours a week. I don't see how it can be very different in other gyms. She is not going to beat anyone even on beam/bars as she still has to jump and dismount onto her injured foot. She was a very good all rounder when she was 7,8,9. Once the injuries kicked in the only things she ever placed on were beam and bars, she never gets a chance to catch up on her skills on vault and floor.

There is no level playing field in gymnastics, there never was and there will never be.

Specializing is the answer to every injured gymnasts prayer. It's not about taking anything away from the healthy AA gymnasts, they will do well 'cos they can.

[bogwoppit]

But, you know what the best news is??? We don't have to agree!!!

[Shawn]

Okay, soccer was a bad analogy. But gymnastics is like no other sport, is it? How about golf? A golfer wouldn't be allowed to skip the water hazard because it's not his "specialty." He would be expected to play every hole just like everyone else.

And Bog, I completely understand what you're saying about injuries and I think we're talking about two different situations. A girl who is injured and can't compete floor or vault or whatever should certainly be allowed to compete those events that she can while she is healing. When she's better, then she can compete AA again. But, I don't think that's the same as the girl who only does floor or only does bars because she can't or won't do the rest. Women's gymnastics is a four-event sport, at least for USAG.

So, we may just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, I do hope your DD gets better soon. Tell her to "hang in there" (hehehe... bars pun intended).

[lannamavity]

If the expectation is for everyone to compete as an all-arounder, then it is a level playing field. It is the choice of the coach/athlete how many hours they work out. Everyone has that choice, and that should never be controlled. The playing field has to be level in competition.

The can of worms USAG is opening (well, asking each Region to open) is equal status for specialists at qualifiers amongst AA's.
Injured athletes are a separate issue. There is a difference between an injured athlete and a specialist. Injured athletes don't have a choice, specialists do. Injured athletes can use their previous AA scores to petition to Regionals, specialists can't.

We had an athlete, recovering from partially torn ligaments in her ankles, compete L10 at her first meet a few weeks ago. She had to compete one meet this season, because she was injured a year ago before Level 10 State (did two events) and didn't compete at Regionals...so she couldn't petition to Regionals without a score from this season. She did two simple tumbling passes on floor (fell on one), a handspring vault, no dimount off beam...and a really nice bar routine...and she still easily qualified for State. It wasn't fun...in fact, it was hard to watch a strong (previously scored 37.0 +) Level 10 struggle like that, but she went out there and did her job and survived. She got more out of that meet than medals. She's not a specialist just because she's hurt, she's a fighter.

That kid who is "scratched from state" is scratching four events because her coach has chosen to. There is no reason why she can't go and do an event if she is healthy enough to do one...that doesn't make her a specialist. State is her final meet and she earned the right to compete (with a qualifying AA score) if she can. No one is stopping her, and being a "specialist" has nothing to do with it.

Injured athletes can already:
#1. Petition to State/Regionals
#2. Get permanent physical limitation verification from a doctor and qualify/compete the events they can.
#3. Qualify to State/Regionals with very low minimum scores.

I do have a theory as to why the push for specialists is getting stronger...and it's not the rule for everyone, but I think it happens a lot more often than most would admit:

Some parents and coaches are afraid to say "no" to gymnasts who want to advance to the next level without being ready on one or more events. Rather than say "no" and have the gymnast threaten to quit (and ruin the coach/parent's dream), the coach allows the athlete to move to the next level unprepared, and, in the long run, the athlete gets frustrated and wants to quit anyway. Then, in a final act of desperation, they are allowed to be a specialist, only doing the events which are easiest and most enjoyable for them. So "being a specialist" is another way to "do what I want to do, or I'll quit."

So being a specialist is a big band-aid on a boo-boo caused by giving in years before. This puts "holding kids back" in a different perspective, huh?

The old adage goes: "A gymnast is only as good as their weakest event." In effect, specialists just choose not to do that event. Is that really a good direction for the sport to turn? What life lesson is that teaching?