JO Event specialists - Page 4

Shawn · #31 03-27-2008, 02:33 PM

Lannamavity- you're so much more eloquent than I am. I second what you said.

AnitaV · #32 03-27-2008, 07:06 PM

This is an interesting discussion. Tramp and Tumbling has a system which I always wondered if it could be used in gymnastics but the logistics seem very difficult. You compete the three events: mini double tramp (I think that is what it is called), trampoline and rod floor/tumbling. You compete a different level in each event based upon your current skill level. That is you compete the level you have skills for on each event. For example you could be a level 8 on tumbling for floor, a level 7 on trampoline and a level 6 on the double mini. Or you could compete the same level on all the events if you have the skills. Also when you go to a meet you can compete on as many or few events as desired. There is no from what I have been told stigma to competing one or all events.

**Geoffrey Taucer** · #33 03-27-2008, 08:22 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnitaV This is an interesting discussion. Tramp and Tumbling has a system which I always wondered if it could be used in gymnastics but the logistics seem very difficult. You compete the three events: mini double tramp (I think that is what it is called), trampoline and rod floor/tumbling. You compete a different level in each event based upon your current skill level. That is you compete the level you have skills for on each event. For example you could be a level 8 on tumbling for floor, a level 7 on trampoline and a level 6 on the double mini. Or you could compete the same level on all the events if you have the skills. Also when you go to a meet you can compete on as many or few events as desired. There is no from what I have been told stigma to competing one or all events.

This sounds like an excellent system to me, though I don't think the logistics would work so well in gymnastics.

chabuc · #34 03-27-2008, 09:36 PM

I think allowing specialists is a good thing. I think, decades ago, there were actually more specialists but then there was a concerted effort to move towards the All-Around. Nothing says we can't go back.

If there becomes too many specialists, why not have states just for specialists? Right now, with things just starting out, it makes no sense to have a state meet just for specialists, if it got popular, nothing says you couldn't break it off into a separate meet. Doesn't Texas do that with it's AAs right now? I think I heard they have so many kids that qualify to states, that states is split up. I think California is also split. "States" is really "half the state" or something like that.

fruitcake · #35 03-28-2008, 12:02 AM

Yes in Tramp and Tumbling you can compete different levels for each event and you don't have to do all 3. However, the meets then can be all day for a child as they may have one event in the morning and one in the late afternoon. My dd switched to TandT this year and we spent almost 8 hours at a meet where she competed 2 events. I can't imagine the headache of scheduling a meet where girls competed on 4 apparatus at different levels! As a parent, I wouldn't want to be a seveal sessions over a weekend which would happen if you could do different levels for each apparatus!
In theory, I like the idea of event specialists. I just think the implementation would be a challenge and require a lot of thinking outside of the box. Until gyms can't put together teams of all-arounders, I don't know if there is enough incentive to try it for the coaches/owners. We parents may like it for our kids but if the coaches have a supply of new girls to move to team, I'm not sure they would see the need to work out how to do event specialists. Imagine scheduling team into the gym with coaches if you have differents numbers on each apparatus--does everyone come for the entire practice? do event specialist just come for the part of practice on their event? do they pay a prorated tuition?
It is all possible, it could be done but what a can of worms!

lannamavity · #36 03-28-2008, 01:17 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey Taucer This sounds like an excellent system to me, though I don't think the logistics would work so well in gymnastics.

It already exists...it's USAIGC. A club who wants event specialists and competition at random levels on differents events would be in heaven competing USAIGC.

Hmmmmm....it just occurred to me that since USAIGC competes against USAG for athletes, USAG could see this as a way to stay "ahead of the competition" in case the "rise of specialists", which will be even more apparant after the Olympics, will inspire kids to do one or two events.

It also explains why USAG isn't pushing the inclusion of specialists, but letting Regions decide, because some areas have more USAIGC clubs than others.

I still have to believe it's about the money. It always is.

LONG LIVE THE ALL-AROUND!!!!

By the way, I liked the soccer analogy, and I can add to it...everyone can't be a goalie just because they aren't good at running.

gymdog · #37 03-30-2008, 11:07 PM

Personally I don't see this as like some enormous threat to the integrity of gymnastics. I guess I don't take gymnastics that seriously. At all, really.

I also don't see it as having much impact at lower levels OR younger ages. Realistically, unless you have one athlete at that level, it would be difficult to train some kids on just one or two events, etc. I don't see a lot of a people doing that. You're going to have to go through compulsories anyway and as Geoff Taucer pretty well points, three of the four girls events complement each other as far as training pretty well. This is why the level system mainly works from my perspective, at least for a long time. Team competitions don't mean a whole lot in USAG and I don't see that changing (if anything I mildly see it trending away from that), and so event specializing as strategy just doesn't really fit in. In all but pretty limited circumstances, you're paying a lot of money and spending a significant amount of time at the gym anyway, which many younger girls don't mind. You might as well train all the events. I see this as being mainly attractive to high schoolers who would quit anyway and want to cut down hours because of nagging pain (not any specific injury at a specific time), etc and I don't really have a problem with that myself. Yeah yeah there are other opportunities but not to compete at the level of USAG on any event and get exposure to NCAA coaches. Maybe there are some states with enormous amounts of 16+ optionals, but my own state has a pretty limited amount. And I doubt 10 year old level 8s are going to start to just train beam. It doesn't make sense. Most people are going to treat this fairly rationally, and if they don't, switch to a gym that does. Also, can specialists move up a level somehow? This is unclear to me. If not, then there's very limited value to this and I highly doubt anyone would do it unless they are already an older 9 or 10, or maybe a much older 8 (like a senior in high school) who is not ever going to be a 9 or 10 and not strong enough on most events to qualify for regionals in the AA, but wants a chance to compete in a meet like that their last year or something.

Personally, I started competing when I was 11/12, and although I had some promise, I just didn't move up fast enough and gym problems around a critical period in high school kind of killed a lot. I ended up at the point where I could have walked onto some teams, but then the specific situation didn't really work out, hard to go into. Anyway, if I could have concentrated on 2 or 3 events, it would have really helped me and possibly given me the chance to get to a higher level on those with the limited time I had. I know a lot of people have a different situation but not everyone starts when they are 7 and not everything works out perfectly so you can just try harder and overcome weaknesses on the same playing field. It's getting harder and harder to start later by my observations and I think this is a way to reverse that trend and give people some options. I think it is really depressing to look at my gym's level 8 group, they are mostly 9-12 whereas mine had many more 14-16. It is like they have decided to just kind of push the older girls into the rec leagues or high school gym around here, you'll never get anywhere in that time so no point worrying about it. I have seen a few girls stay in level 8 until their senior year for various reasons but because our regionals takes very few girls by placement rather than AA score, they are competing with the 15 year olds who will be 9s the next year in some cases for a couple spots at regionals and usually are just not as strong, but might have a chance at one event like beam which generally requires less strength and with more focused training on that, might be able to reach that higher level to be competitive. I find the opposition this on the grounds that is compromising the entire sport and weak and an easy way out, etc, very bizarre. I don't know any gyms that competed USAIGC around where I grew up so while it may be an option for clubs, it isn't for all athletes and it's not like people are going to move to do USAIGC.

lannamavity · #38 03-31-2008, 12:37 AM

So you "don't take gymnastics seriously?" ...not sure I get your point. It sort of sounds like this discussion is "below you." Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Team competition is very important in a lot of states. Some clubs depend on their success at State Meets to attract athletes to their gym. That's why a lot of parents pick some gyms over others. I guess if there is an area where the gymnastics is of a very low level, and there are very few gyms competing for athletes, this wouldn't be an issue.

The beauty of a team is, if an athlete isn't as successful on, say floor, as opposed to bars, they can contribute to their team's score on bars. That way, instead of quitting an event/events, they are just contributing on their best event/events for the team. What happened to your helping the "team?"

I don't see how the "similarity" of women's events makes specializing such a natural step. So a guy skips pommels and goes straight to pbars...why is that so much more complicated than a girl skipping vault and going to beam?

One thing which hasn't been mentioned is that, in the compulsory levels, bars is not the only event that kids have trouble with (once they have a kip)...it's fear on beam...back walkovers, back handsprings etc. So what is to stop a kid who has fear on beam from becoming a "specialist" on every other event for Level 8? If they don't care about State Meet, then how about Level 7, or 6? That not a trend toward specialization, it is a trend toward recreational gymnastics.

I have seen a lot of "older starters" in the sport who go on to compete optionals, quite well, actually. Do they become level 10's? Not often...but they have the option if they get the skills. You can't blame gymnastics because you chose to start it at a later age. Even Sacramone started gymnastics late...and she got her butt up on bars...and sucked... and still earned herself a spot on the Worlds Team. Prime example.

I again pose the question: Who decides who gets to specialize? Has anyone had this situation? To be honest, I've coached in four states and have never seen a girl who was a true "specialist". Is there anyone out there who actually does this or has seen a club do it?

chabuc · #39 03-31-2008, 05:25 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by lannamavity So you "don't take gymnastics seriously?" ...not sure I get your point. It sort of sounds like this discussion is "below you." Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

You're reading it wrong.

Aussie_coach · #40 03-31-2008, 05:40 AM

Even with specialist allowed, I don't think there would be too many. I believe that vast, vast majority of gymnasts would continue to compete all around. There are many "easier" gymsports available but I don't think girls are retiring into them, in fact I think they are being pushed into them due to the pressure's in WAG. Many can't handle the training hours required or simply cant cope with the difficulty level. WAG is losing many gymnasts to these gymsports.