Need advice

[Carmansunshine]

The coach is placing a self stick velcro beam thing on the floor and telling her to put her left hand on the right side of the line and her right hand on the left side of the line. She is now doing this and its working for her. She seems to have more power with this move. I think she is missing the arm pop. She is trying so many different things and is getting better but if it was me I think my head would explode, so I'm trying to break them down at home to have her do the changes 1 at a time so she commits them to memory. But I don't completely understand what the snap down is, or where the pop happens. I can see something is missing in the RO but can't nail down what. She gets some spring at the end but not as much as the other girls. She is staying tight at the end and seems to have tight sholders and goes right over her head now but she doesn't bounce like an eraser off her sholders is she suposed to have a bounce there too? And can someone tell me what a handstand snap is? If this will help her we'll give it a try. She really wants to make the team at the new gym but the coach says she wont unless she can fix this skill up to competition quality( understandably ). The coach explains the changes she is trying to have my dd change and we do them except the pop because I can't eplain them to my dd if I don't understand. I liked the eraser thing it made it really easy to understand, now I just need to know where it goes and how to get it .

[ACoach78]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey Taucer ACoach87: I've always found that the best roundoffs have as much of the twist as possible before the hands contact the floor (within reason, of course; the gymnast should not dive and do a half turn in order to get the hands turned before contacting the floor, or anything like that). This allows the gymnast to snap down almost directly backwards using the abs, as opposed to snapping down sideways while twisting as you would if your hands were placed like a cartwheel.

Do me a favor, find me a video of a round-off done well as you are indicating. Creating as much twist as possible before hand placement will cause the kicking leg to go around the side.

In the better round-offs, the hands will be almost in a straight line with the second hand turned in with the fingers pointing towards the first hand forming an upside-down "T" when looking from the perspective of the gymnast. There might be a slight deviation with the second hand depending on the gymnast. Sometimes, that hand will be a few degrees off of the line. Additionally, the second hand may only be turned part of the way towards the first hand. I'd say at maybe 45 degrees as opposed to a complete 90 degrees (perpendicular) relative to the first hand.

[ACoach78]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmansunshine The coach is placing a self stick velcro beam thing on the floor and telling her to put her left hand on the right side of the line and her right hand on the left side of the line. She is now ding this and its working for her. She seems to have more power with this move. I think she is missing the arm pop. She is trying so many different things and is getting better but if it was me I think my head would explode, so I'm trying to break them down at home to have her do the changes 1 at a time so she commits them to memory. But I don't completely understand what the snap down is, or where the pop happens. I can see something is missing in the RO but can't nail down what. She gets some spring at the end but not as much as the other girls. She is staying tight at the end and seems to have tight sholders and goes right over her head now but she doesn't bounce like an eraser off her sholders is she suposed to have a bounce there too? And can someone tell me what a handstand snap is? If this will help her we'll give it a try. She really wants to make the team at the new gym but the coach says she wont unless she can fix this skill up to competition quality( understandably ). The coach explains the changes she is trying to have my dd change and we do them except the pop because I can't eplain them to my dd if I don't understand. I liked the eraser thing it made it really easy to understand, now I just need to know where it goes and how to get it .

I assume that she's a lefty cartwheel? (first hand down is left? left lunge?)

As I mentioned in the previous post, I indicated the better hand position. Furthermore, the more in line the hands can be, the easier it will be to develop a RO on beam since they have to be in a straight line with one another.

The biggest thing with developing the RO is to put the gymnast into situations where they can successfully perform the skill and achieve the right shapes/positions. During the beginning stages of development, it is best to have them working downhill in some capacity - down an incline mat, off the floor into a loose foam/resi pit, etc. This allows them to build the motor coordination of the skill properly. As they become stronger, the skill can gradually be moved to a level surface and even working uphill (onto panel mats, etc.) for development of the Yurchenko vault.

The RO is probably the hardest skill to teach properly. There are very few good RO in the entire world in my opinion. And, it's so critical to back tumbling. While I'm on my soapbox, one of the worst things that coaches can do is to teach kids with a mediocre RO to perform RO Back Tucks with no back handspring in the middle. Since they have a mediocre RO, doing this will cause more harm than good when they decide to put the BHS in there, their block angle from the RO will not be consistent.

Back to the point at hand, without seeing the RO, I cannot offer much advice. As stated previously, there could be numerous things going on. However, most of the RO issues that I've encountered occur because of problems with the entry - head sticking out, turning too much and/or too early, not enough of a lunge, too much leaning/piking at the hips as the gymnast reaches for the floor while the back leg is not kicking over fast enough, bringing the legs together too early, etc. That's a common misnomer - when is she being told to bring the legs together?

Quite honestly, the best thing that she can probably do is to not do round-offs as much - spend time on performing cartwheel step-ins, side cartwheels, etc. and make sure that the alignment is proper as well as develop the appropriate strength to be able to generate the necessary velocity of the kicking leg. Also, developing a good front handspring will have a huge impact on the strength of the RO itself.

So, if you can get a video, that would be a big help. Also, keep in mind that there's no magical fix. It is a process!!!! Furthermore, the RO, BHS, and RO BHS can ALWAYS be improved upon. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I once read an article about how Liukin spent a minimum of a total of at least a couple hours per week trying to improve his RO BHS even after he had already competed the triple back.

[gym law mom]

Carman---I think you are trying to do too much at this point. No coach should expect a parent(unless you're a gymnast) to correct skills like a RO at home. I know you want to help your dd and support her since it sounds like she's had a rough time with poor coaching to start and then going back and relearning everything. Believe me I know how badly she wants to move to team and how much you want that for her and there is nothing at all wrong with that. I think right now, it may be getting to the point of "too many cooks" type scenario.

I'm not a huge advocate of private lessons just to do them. Here it sounds like maybe 1 or 2 sessions with your dd and the coach together might benefit everyone. They'll have time to really break down the RO without distraction and put it together correctly. ACoach has a good point that it is a process and one that shouldn't be rushed. This time when she gets the RO, you want to know it is the way it should be done.

[Mac]

Quote:
I think she is missing the arm pop. She is trying so many different things and is getting better but if it was me I think my head would explode, so I'm trying to break them down at home to have her do the changes 1 at a time so she commits them to memory. But I don't completely understand what the snap down is, or where the pop happens.

Gym Law Mom has it right, you could be doing too much. If you don't understand the components, then chances are greater that you'll contradict the coaches than help her. Even if you knew all the components of a roundoff, a back handspring, etc, chances are still good that you'll be doing something the coach would rather not be done. A good coach has the training and experience to know how to teach the skills to the kids. If we have concerns, we should speak to the coach. But if we put too much pressure on them, or our child, or ourselves to learn something on a timetable we think would be convenient, it's likely to not work out as we planned. You either trust the coach or you don't. If you do, then let them coach. If you don't, then find one you do.

If your daughter desires to do something at home, she should stick to basics--push ups, chin-ups, stretching, handstands--not learning new skills that need the involvement of a trained coach.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoach78 Do me a favor, find me a video of a round-off done well as you are indicating.

Ask and ye shall recieve.



Watch his roundoffs. It is certainly not 90 degrees before contact and 90 degrees after as you are suggesting; he's turning a good 120 to 135 degrees before his hands contact the floor on every roundoff he does.

Did I mention he was the 2005 world champion on floor?

Also: It's less pronounced in Dragalescu's tumbling, but he definitely turns way past 90 degrees before his hands contact on his roundoff as well.


As does Kyle Shewfelt:


And it's not guys who tumble like that. Carly Patterson does it too. You can especially see it in her second tumbling pass in this video:

[audra]

I have to agree w/ Mac & GLM doing more at home may be what is overwhelming your daughter even more. It sounds as if the coaches are really breaking it down for her and as she fixes the little things the "pop" will come. Gymnastics is a "Cause and Effect" sport, if her positions are not correct the rebound will not happen. Be patient - tight body work at home will be the most beneficial. Have her work hollow positions and hollow push up (where she can feel her shoulders being pushed up). If you allowed to video tape practice sometime I would tape your daughter's round offs as well as some of the other girls, visual images help children learn.

[littlegymchampsmom]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmansunshine But I don't completely understand what the snap down is, or where the pop happens.

ok, i will do my best attempt at this, I hope the coaches will clarify where I goof ... a snap down is where the gymnast would perform a handstand on the floor or on a block (the latter would create more power from what I have previously understood), it is impt to bring the body immediately over the hands then using her arms (i think this is the pop you are referrring to) pop up onto her feet and immediately rebound... this seems to me like it emulates the pop of the ro... one way to try them at home is to have her do handstands about 12-18" away from the wall, legs rounded touching the wall (sort of like a bhs shape) then pull her body away from the wall using her back and shoulder muscles... carman, I applaud you for asking your ? here, I think this brings up a basic skill that really does need to get broken down and that not everybody can just immediately put it together, all gymnasts learn differently, and from the coaches opinions here that I have read, I guess even coaches teach it differently/view it differently as well.. the key will be to find the best way your dd absorbs and learns... I think its great that parents stay involved with their kids' training

ok so I may have really confused you - heck I confused meeee, but hopefully a coach can clarify it a little better than I did ....

[ACoach78]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey Taucer Ask and ye shall recieve. Watch his roundoffs. It is certainly not 90 degrees before contact and 90 degrees after as you are suggesting; he's turning a good 120 to 135 degrees before his hands contact the floor on every roundoff he does. Did I mention he was the 2005 world champion on floor? Also: It's less pronounced in Dragalescu's tumbling, but he definitely turns way past 90 degrees before his hands contact on his roundoff as well. As does Kyle Shewfelt: And it's not guys who tumble like that. Carly Patterson does it too. You can especially see it in her second tumbling pass in this video:

You are correct in your observations. However, your interpretation of what you are seeing is not as I perceive it. Essentially, the gymnasts do not "have as much twist as possible" before hand contact. Upon the initial hand contact, their bodies are in a position of that of a sideways-facing cartwheel for the most part. It might be difficult to see because of the video capabilities of a regular speed camera. High-speed video would illustrate this much better.

As I noted in a previous post, the second arm might turn a little farther such that it is a little off the line relative to the first hand. My opinion on this is that it's really going to be dictated by the ability of the gymnast. The stronger, faster gymnasts can perform this technique and will tend to perform this technique because they are able to generate a great deal more back leg ("kicking") velocity so as not to allow that leg to deviate around the side. Furthermore, that extra little "reach" with the second hand occurs well after the initial hand contact.

Therefore, your suggestion of teaching a gymnast to "have as much twist as possible" prior to hand contact is not a good idea in my opinion.

Here is a good video to better illustrate my thoughts. It is a video of Cheng Fei's vault from 2005 Worlds - Yurchenko 2 1/2 twist. It's an almost textbook vault and her round-off mechanics are very good. The beauty of this video is there are three different slo-mo replays at the end with one of them being from up above the gymnast and it clearly shows her in about a 95%+ sideways position during the hand support. The second hand is only slightly out of line with the first hand. (I'm unsure as to how to embed the video - so, I'll just post the link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrwh7QTYKU

Lastly, I think that some of the "reach around" of the second arm is reflective of of the fact that these gymnasts are medially rotating the humerus to create the effect of turning the second hand in. In contrast, they could just as easily medially rotate the forearm instead and it would keep their hands more in alignment.

Regardless, I would strongly imagine that it's not something that they were taught to do per se. They adapted these idiosyncrasies on their own.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

To be sure, there is a lot of variation in how high-level gymnasts do roundoffs. Every gymnast is different, and there will always be minor variations in what exact techniques will be most effective with each gymnast. However, it is my experience that most (by which I mean almost all) gymnasts can get far more power out of their roundoffs if they turn their hands as far as they can reasonably manage before contacting the floor. If the hands are placed like a cartwheel as you suggested, this significantly complicates and slows down the second half of the roundoff.

Note that when I say "as far as reasonably possible", I mean as far as possible without unnecessary air time between the takeoff of the feet and the nads contacting the floor, or any other lapses in technique. I will not allow my kids to sacrifice form in order to turn their hands further. But I have seen very very very few cases where that even becomes an issue.