Is this good coaching or abuse?

[tgc]

My daughter just finished her level 4 season and is now starting on level 5. She works out 3 ½ hours 3 days a week. The last half and hour is conditioning. The last thing she does is a pike hold and a straddle hold on parallets with her feet rose over a panel mat. On her 30 second straddle hold her feet dropped at 29 seconds. Her coach accused her of cheating. Then she stayed after to do 10 more 30 second straddle holds and 10 more 30 second pike holds. Her teammates came and got me because she was in the locker room and she could not stop crying. She said her stomach hurt and she could not feel her legs. This is a girl that does not cry.
She worked out for 2 weeks with a broken growth plate and only complained to me when away from practice. When the doctor put her in a boot she was dropped from tops testing. She begged to take the boot off until after the testing was done. (Of course, I said, “no way”.)
I am not sure it was the pain or the humiliation and anger. She says she did not cheat; she just accidentally dropped her legs a half a second too early. Her teammates said she did not cheat. Her coach says she could have pushed through. Now her work out requires that she does double holds until her coach decides otherwise. My daughter, who once loved gymnastics, wants to quit. She says it’s all because of this coach, and that she should be fired. In the last week she has had other problems with her. She cannot quite do two full rope climbs in a pike. So she does 1 ½ and then comes back and does a full. The other day on her second full she was one pull from the top when she slipped. She caught herself, and came down. Her coach’s only response was, “now you have another half.” Also, she did what looked like beautiful leg lifts. Her legs were straight, her toes were pointed. But she had to do extra because at the end the girls have to touch their toes to the bar and hold. When she did the hold, her toes were too high. My daughter would not be this first girl driven away by this coach.
I am sorry that I am rambling. Please, any feedback would be nice. If this is just good coaching, please let me know. Thanks.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'd have to see this coach in action to say for sure, but what you're describing does sound a bit excessive. First off, I'd talk to the coach and/or the owner, and take it from there.

[bogwoppit]

If you are asking the question you probably already know the answer.

You say she has driven other girls away.

You say your child wants to quit.

You say the coach is punishing your child with extra conditioning.

A young child training 12 hours a week should love gym and be excited about going each time. Occasional tears are one thing, but this sounds a bit to punitive to be constructive.

Speak to the coach and head coach together, not with your child though.

[Valentin]

Hi

I think bogwoppit said it... you probably know the answer.

From what you describe, it sounds like the typical punisher type coach. It sad to watch, i have worked in clubs with coaches like that, and its just sad, because you can see the kids just get totaly shattered by those comments.
Its one thing if they do cheat, you catch it, and punish it (typical Pavlovian Conditioning).. but to not see it, and dash out the punishment that is just a personal thing. In judging there is a rule that says "give the benefit of the dought to the gymnast", and that is my opinion should be the case in gymnastics. If you didnt see it, give them the benefit (if you know they are a cheater...watch them more carefully, but dont just give out the punishment)...

I would say that yeah she is power tripping on your daughter. I dont know if talking to such a coach will have much benefit.. it could go either way
1- She goes easier on your daughter, and stops paying attention to her all together.
2- She agrees that she has been hard, and appologises and start coaching her fairly (humm... do you see that happening?)
3- Begins to explain to you that she is the coach, she knows best..and gives you a speech about how these kids need to be pushed, and taught not to cheat their conditioning etc...

I guess your only options are
1- Look for another gym in your area..maybe even a better one?
2- Talk to the coach
3- Give it more time, maybe your daughter will forget about this...
4- Don't do anything..
5- Your daughter quits..problem solved or is it?

[tgc]

Bogwoppit, I talked to the coach immediately after the last incident. I told her that I felt punishing my dd for the same offence seems excessive. She told me that she only punished her once. She said the doubling of her holds during conditioning is because she is weak there and needs to strengthen. She said it would improve her bars and beam skills. I told her my dd would be fine doing more conditioning if she thought the extra work assignment was coming from a loving place. The coach said, of course. I told her my dd sees it as punishment and asked the coach to explain the extra conditioning is because she just wants her to be a better gymnast. The coach said, “I think she can work through this”. I repeated myself about four more times before she quit saying she can work through this and agreed to talk to her. I feel like she just wanted to get me to leave her alone.

Valentin, leaving for another program would be a huge financial hardship. We are involved in a city program and the private gyms are about 4 times more expensive. There is another gym that has worked with my dd during camps and has tried to recruit her. There owner watches her at meets much closer than her own coaches do. I only realized this when I was reviewing a video and saw him walking back and forth on the floor to follow her entire routine. He says he does not agree with the coaching philosophy of our gym. He believes they hold the girls back. Last spring break he said that she should be getting ready for level 7.

As it turned out she repeated level 4 while able to do all her level 5 skills. This is because they made the decision of levels while she was in a boot with her injury. They said she was an unknown. We expressed concern to the head coach, but were told, "Should the coaching staff feel that it has made an error, we will try to adjust for it." When she had recovered well and could do all the routines okay I asked a coach if she thought they made a mistake. She just said that my dd was in a good place and would score better as a level 4.

I guess my point is that talking to the head coach has accomplished nothing in the past. I have felt that it has actually hurt my dd’s standing in the gym. He does not care if the girls leave. When we did not like that she was being forced to repeat level 4, he said that if we feel too strongly about this we might want to check into other programs in town. When a teammate was struggling with the extreme conditioning demands, he told the girl’s mother that the other programs in town do not require so much conditioning. The girls are often reminded that there are 1800 girls in the rec. program that would happily take their spot. The coach that is conflicting with my dd is one of the senior coaches. We are experiencing a coaching shortage already. I do not think anything will be done, except it will get back to her that we complained and she will be even harder on my dd.

I think this is part of dd’s problem with this coach right now. After dd came out of the boot, I asked this coach to do a private lesson with my dd so she could learn the bar routine. She declined to do the private lesson. She did not want to push dd to fast after the injury. She said that dd has all the level 5 bar skills and will have no problem putting it together in the routine. We passed this information on to the head coach, along with what all the other coaches told us. After that the coach always yells at dd more than anyone else. She does not let her do anything other than a kip. She lets girls with no kip jump to the high bar. She tells us that when dd’s kip is better she will let her jump to the high bar, but right now she does not want her to fall. However, when she is out for the day and dd gets another coach, she does the entire routine with no trouble.

Thank you for the feedback. The program does have a lot of good warm coaches that my dd holds in high regard, the facility is great, and my dd loves her teammates. I think this coach has a lot to offer, I just think she needs to take some child development classes. I do not think she understands how much she is hurting these girls. (I might talk to the program director in general about the coaches needing more training in child development.) My dd said she will go to practice today. We agreed to start documenting her problems with her coach.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgc Bogwoppit, I talked to the coach immediately after the last incident. I told her that I felt punishing my dd for the same offence seems excessive. She told me that she only punished her once. She said the doubling of her holds during conditioning is because she is weak there and needs to strengthen. She said it would improve her bars and beam skills. I told her my dd would be fine doing more conditioning if she thought the extra work assignment was coming from a loving place. The coach said, of course. I told her my dd sees it as punishment and asked the coach to explain the extra conditioning is because she just wants her to be a better gymnast. The coach said, “I think she can work through this”. I repeated myself about four more times before she quit saying she can work through this and agreed to talk to her. I feel like she just wanted to get me to leave her alone.

That's what it sounds like to me as well.

Quote:
Valentin, leaving for another program would be a huge financial hardship. We are involved in a city program and the private gyms are about 4 times more expensive. There is another gym that has worked with my dd during camps and has tried to recruit her. There owner watches her at meets much closer than her own coaches do. I only realized this when I was reviewing a video and saw him walking back and forth on the floor to follow her entire routine.

Actually, this sounds a little creepy to me.

Quote:
He says he does not agree with the coaching philosophy of our gym. He believes they hold the girls back. Last spring break he said that she should be getting ready for level 7.

He may well be right; a lot of gyms do hold kids back for better scores, and it sounds like your gym may be one of them. HOWEVER, I wouldn't take this other coach's word for it; as you said, he's trying to recruit your daughter, and may say anything to convince you that he could do a better job with her than her current coaches.

Quote:
As it turned out she repeated level 4 while able to do all her level 5 skills. This is because they made the decision of levels while she was in a boot with her injury. They said she was an unknown. We expressed concern to the head coach, but were told, "Should the coaching staff feel that it has made an error, we will try to adjust for it." When she had recovered well and could do all the routines okay I asked a coach if she thought they made a mistake. She just said that

Quote:
my dd was in a good place and would score better as a level 4.

This throws up a pretty big red flag to me; this sounds like the gym is more concerned with bringing home trophies than with actually pushing the kid forward. This goes against everything I believe gymnastics should be about.

HOWEVER, I cannot say for sure what level she should be without working with her myself, so take my words with a grain of salt.

Quote:
I guess my point is that talking to the head coach has accomplished nothing in the past. I have felt that it has actually hurt my dd’s standing in the gym. He does not care if the girls leave. When we did not like that she was being forced to repeat level 4, he said that if we feel too strongly about this we might want to check into other programs in town. When a teammate was struggling with the extreme conditioning demands, he told the girl’s mother that the other programs in town do not require so much conditioning. The girls are often reminded that there are 1800 girls in the rec. program that would happily take their spot. The coach that is conflicting with my dd is one of the senior coaches. We are experiencing a coaching shortage already. I do not think anything will be done, except it will get back to her that we complained and she will be even harder on my dd.

This doesn't sound like the sort of gym I'd want to be at, either as a coach or as a gymnast. Between this and what you're saying about them holding your daughter back at L4, it sounds to me like the gym is more concerned with competing well (ie with their reputation as a strong gym) than with doing what's best for each individual kid.

Quote:
I think this is part of dd’s problem with this coach right now. After dd came out of the boot, I asked this coach to do a private lesson with my dd so she could learn the bar routine. She declined to do the private lesson. She did not want to push dd to fast after the injury. She said that dd has all the level 5 bar skills and will have no problem putting it together in the routine. We passed this information on to the head coach, along with what all the other coaches told us. After that the coach always yells at dd more than anyone else. She does not let her do anything other than a kip. She lets girls with no kip jump to the high bar. She tells us that when dd’s kip is better she will let her jump to the high bar, but right now she does not want her to fall. However, when she is out for the day and dd gets another coach, she does the entire routine with no trouble.

Sounds like, contrary to what the coaches are saying, that coach is singling out your daughter and treating her unfairly. Again, all I can go by is what you're saying, so I'm not the ideal judge of the situation, but it sounds like your daughter is being treated unfairly.

Quote:
Thank you for the feedback. The program does have a lot of good warm coaches that my dd holds in high regard, the facility is great, and my dd loves her teammates. I think this coach has a lot to offer, I just think she needs to take some child development classes. I do not think she understands how much she is hurting these girls. (I might talk to the program director in general about the coaches needing more training in child development.) My dd said she will go to practice today. We agreed to start documenting her problems with her coach.

Documenting the issues is definitely a good idea.

As has been said earlier, the best way to judge anything like this is to ask your daughter. If she consistently doesn't want to go to practice, it's time to look at other options, and consider either switching gyms or quitting.

HOWEVER, going back to what you were saying about the coach from the other gym, the more I reread what you've said, the less inclined I would be to trust this other coach's assessment of the situation. A coach who does not work with your daughter on a regular basis is in no way qualified to tell you she should be a full three levels above where she is now. Also, I've always considered it bad form for a coach to tell a kid or parent that their current gym is doing things wrong; he's not qualified to determine that either, at least not to the extent that he should be sharing his assessment with potential customers. It sounds more like a recruitment tactic than like sound coaching advice.

[JBS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgc He says he does not agree with the coaching philosophy of our gym. He believes they hold the girls back. Last spring break he said that she should be getting ready for level 7.

If he does not agree with the philosophy of the gym...he should be meeting with the owners about it (not telling customers). If I had a coach (employee) tell a parent this, they would be immediately fired.

That part just really caught my eye. I haven't had time to read this entire thread...but I will.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS If he does not agree with the philosophy of the gym...he should be meeting with the owners about it (not telling customers). If I had a coach (employee) tell a parent this, they would be immediately fired.

Agreed. This isn't something that a coach should discuss with customers of another gym (or of his own gym, for that matter). It's extremely unprofessional.