high-level bar dismounts

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I have a girl who has a solid double back off bars, and we're thinking about starting her working on either a full-out or a double layout. I think I have somewhat of an idea how to go about teaching these, but I have no experience actually doing so, so I wanted to get the thoughts of some other coaches.

I know that with guys, when learning anything beyond a double-back, most coaches first teach the kid a chinese tap. This is very visible in most high-level men's highbar routines.

However, this doesn't seem to be true of women's routines. Is there some particular reason why girls don't do a chinese tap into their dismounts?

Mainly what I'd like to hear about is what (if any) modifications need to be made to the giant leading into the dismount, and if there are any particular drills that are good for teaching that modified tap.

[CoachL]

the tap itself doesn't change very much on a double layout on UB, the speed of the giant is what really needs to be increased. The giant must turn over extremely fast for a proper double lay to be performed.

Also for most gymnasts the full in or the half in half out tend be easier than a full out.

[Flippin_Gymnast]

ohk well wat my coach had me do was do about 5 tap swings and on the last 2 of them to snap my legs wen im going into the next giant and then arch-and-snap my body leading into my double layout and it helped a lot! so u may want to try that!

[hammy]

Here's what I did when I learned the double layout dismount off bars:
1. faster giants with a hard tap (kick toes up hard)
2. I did a "hollow" double layout starting...kick your toes up hard to the hollow shape before letting go
3. Once the hollow double layout is mastered start whipping the dismount. Make sure to whip after the releasing the bar.

Here's a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJNNJqLJuIE

I absolutely love double layouts, and I really miss doing them!

[Geoffrey Taucer]

So why is there such a difference between the way girls tap into this skill and the way guys tap into it? Why is it that girls don't do a chinese tap the way guys do?

Examples:

[hammy]

Generally the tap difference is because the girls have the low bar and the guys don't. The chinese tap would cause the gymnast to tap above the low bar, which is not safe (girls generally either smack the low bar or ping off). There have been very few girls that I have seen that have been able to pull off the chinese tap--usually they've been trained by a men's team coach. The girls tap (under the high bar) is sufficiant for teaching the double layout or dismounts that are alike, as long as it is strong and has a good kick with the toes leading up off the bar.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Ok, thanks.

[CoachL]

mohini used to do a chinese tap when she was trained by chris waller.

[Valentin]

There was a study done on the advantage of the wind up giant (tong fei) as opposed to doing the regular giants and..the outcome was that there isn't any advantage..well in that it (the tong Fei) generagates any more angular velocity (which is the key to giants usefullness), but it is less energy taxing. Meaning that at the end of a routine when you are just tired as hell this giant does have a distinct advantage.
It could also have a psychological advantage to it. however i do think that it is usually leads to early releases.

Lately though there is a growing trend in WAG gymnastics to try and do a similar technique..by pushing the toes over the low bar rather then the under. Is it good? well really if you can time it right i dont think it makes an real difference. At the end girls are doing layout layouts super thight and nice (eg McCool)..double doubles layout (eg Johnoson, and McCool) and even tripples (forget names.. didnt Shantessa Pama do it?). These are pretty much the same dismounts as MAG, with the disadvantage that the UB High Bar is lower then the MAG HB...and they have a low bar to worry about, which means that your bail has to be optimised to get really sweet dismounts.

Essential if a WAG gymnast tried to do a Tong fei giant, she does run the risk of hitting the low bar. However i think the bigger limitiation to it for WAG is that
1- girls at that level/age are just not powerfull enough.. If you look at the MAG and WAG and compare the velocity of giants, tap you will notice a considerable difference
2- There is a tendancy for people who do use this technique to go further away from the bar and be lower then if you did standard giants into your dismount..which for WAG would just not work
Example
Aljzas Pegan regualar giant into dismount = tripple back pretty high almost no cowboy tuck. and lands safely away from the bar but doesn't go flying.
Vlasios Maras tong fei giant into double double = goes flying and his peak height is lower then the Pegan.
Even though the skills are different they both requires relatively equal amounts of Angular velocity to make it around (however i need to ref to books to be sure on that).
And also these are just two contasting cases (not enough to really shock the world)..but if you do look around i think you will notice that there is a pattern with that.

i short... i think that the Tong Fei is not of any real advantage to WAG, and it is not even a huge advantage in MAG either.. you may think it, but mechanically speaking when wanting to generate angular velocity the standard giant wins.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valentin Aljzas Pegan regualar giant into dismount = tripple back pretty high almost no cowboy tuck. and lands safely away from the bar but doesn't go flying.

Erm... it looked to me like he definitely cowboyed that. Also, in most of the routines I've seen Pegan do, his dismount scares the bajeezus out of me, because it's so close to the bar...

I understand what you're saying though.