Kohei Uchimura

[Geoffrey Taucer]

You are correct about everything except the way in which the FIG describes the Kovacs:

Originally Posted by FIG Men's Code of Points, page 126

Dbl. salto bwd. t. over the bar (Kovacs)

The Kovacs is already described as a double salto in the code. This is why I'm referring to Uchimura's skill as a triple.

[dunno]

hey geoff. your reply has not posted for some reason. but somehow i read your post.

i have information from a mens fig bulletin from 4 months ago. they are aware of uchimura's potential new skill and the poorly described kovacs in the code. at some point their intent is to "fix" the wording.

i thought everyone knew that FIG are not the brightest bulbs in the box when it comes to these things. kovacs is not their only misnomer.


edit: i went back to view this, and lo and behold your post is up! something must've froze on my end?

[CalamityJoe]

I would hope that, given the amount of time that has passed, you would see the flaw in your logic. A rotation is determined by the degrees of angular momentum turned around a fixed point, whether that be the body's centre of mass or the high bar a gymnast is swinging around.

So, from the point of release until the point of re-grasp, how many rotations are there in a Kovacs? Think of the implications if there really were just one, 360 degree rotation!

[dunno]

the center of gravity is on the body. the center of mass is the fixed high bar.

from the point of release to the point of regrasp is one somi. hands to hands. go watch it in slow motion. if the gymnast does not grab the bar you have 1 1/2 somi over the bar.

i guess you think that a fly away is a complete somi.
and a double fly away 2 somi's. the same logic finds coaches and athletes calling hand front 2 1/2 somi's "double fronts" and tsuk 2 1/2 somi's as "tsuk doubles". this is wrong and flawed.

by the way, a hand to hand in acro is 1 somi. a kovacs without the high bar.

p.s. let me know when you want to discuss back tosses and double back tosses on p-bars.

[dunno]

Originally Posted by dunno

the center of gravity is on the body. the center of mass is the fixed high bar.

from the point of release to the point of regrasp is one somi. hands to hands. go watch it in slow motion. if the gymnast does not grab the bar you have 1 1/2 somi over the bar.

i guess you think that a fly away is a complete somi.
and a double fly away 2 somi's. the same logic finds coaches and athletes calling hand front 2 1/2 somi's "double fronts" and tsuk 2 1/2 somi's as "tsuk doubles". this is wrong and flawed.

by the way, a hand to hand in acro is 1 somi. a kovacs without the high bar.

p.s. let me know when you want to discuss back tosses and double back tosses on p-bars.

couldn't edit a 2nd time, but i thought i would add this for those that are interested.

angular momentum equals the product of mass, velocity and distance from mass to axis of rotation. when a gymnast leaves the mat, they have all the angular momentum from their push-off that they will get, none can be gained or lost. however, for various moves, the gymnast will need to change their rate of rotation while in the air. how can they change their rate of rotation without pushing off on something? they do this by changing the distance of their center of mass from the axis of rotation. the angular speed increases or decreases by changing the distance between the mass and the axis of rotation. angular momentum equals the product of mass, velocity and distance from mass to axis of rotation. the angular speed increases or decreases by changing the distance between the mass and the axis of rotation.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Do you consider a tkatchev to be a forward salto?

[dunno]

yes. ......

[CalamityJoe]

There are a couple of erroneous points to dunno's post, which I'll attempt to address individually:

1. The terms Center of Gravity (CG) and Center of Mass (CM) are synonymous in uniform gravitational fields. The gymnast and High Bar has CM just the same as any other object. The distinction here is unnecessary.

2. The point of release of the CM in a Kovacs is approximately 43° to neutral bar angle (Kerwin et al 2007) for a tucked Kovacs. In order from gymnast to be able to re-grasp (and avoid several other implausible outcomes that were clearly not considered), the gymnast would need to rotate a minimum of 403°. However, to preserve the kinetic energy accrued from the somersault going in to the subsequent skill, this has got to be closer to 500° - at an absolute minimum.

3. There have been several attempts by biomechanists to change the wording of Kovacs in the CdP so that it falls in line with the description of Gaylord I, so far to no avail.

4. Dunno, should you wish to engage in a discussion about the movement properties of gymnastics skills for any reason other than your own ego, I would be more than happy to do so. However, I would recommend spending some time doing some further reading on biomechanics before doing so.

5. The Tkatchev is not a salto. However there's an interesting paper from Ivan Cuk detailing the biomechanical properties for the (yet to be performed in major competition) Tkatchev-salto which might be of interest: http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:h...20090629121943

[dunno]

YouTube - tkatchev salto avant

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Let's keep it civil, everybody.