WAG Is this no-uptraining method optimal?

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Sasha

Proud Parent
Hi coaches/parents,

Background: I've posted recently (mostly in social groups) about my disappointment/frustration with my DD (8) being invited to train L4 several months ago, then only given limited opportunities to actually train L4 skills - instead repeating L3 skills over and over half the time (that she has had with good form already) and waiting in line a bunch whilst the younger ones are spotted on same L3 skills they don't have at all yet. Argh.

Anyway, even though she got kip pretty well very early on during this time, and by the end was landing 8-10 high bar kips in a row with increasingly straight arms, and regularly landing 10 cartwheels on high beam, etc., they kept her in L3. They never even let her try front handspring (even on trampoline), even though they compliment her bhs and she has lovely front walkovers and limbers. I didn't understand that at all. She can do an OK, squat-less FHS on our backyard mat despite never being trained. Better than I see most kids when they are starting. I don't tell the coaches this. Note: no, I don't mom-coach at home. We just have a tumbling mat that she brings out sometimes.

I smiled, bit my tongue and "trusted the coaches" as much as I could, as they promised they would continue uptraining with her, and she could compete with kip if she got her arms fully straight.

Two months have now passed, and she has had nearly zero opportunities to practice kip (or other uptraining). I believe only one 30-minute bar session (in two months of 16 hour weeks) has been devoted to kips. Else, she runs (L3) routines and waits in line. They tell her her L3 bar routine is "awesome" and "beautiful" every time with super minimal corrections here and there. Same with floor and vault. Beam is less polished, but solid. I DO REALIZE repetition to make it automatic is key!! But nearly no uptraining at all?

So my question is, is this move away from uptraining typical and expected? Is this optimal for her? Or is this gym just not going to be optimal for her? She is losing her kip in the couple times she has tried it, and also losing cartwheel on beam. She got to do 3 kip attempts in a recent class, and started to get it back, and now in 4 classes after that she has had 0 kip opportunities. It feels like just when she is getting something, the opportunity for continued practice is not presented. I have taught a range of other sports to children (and adults) and this is not an optimal approach in any other sport that I know of. The L4 girls with whom she had been training (and similarly semi-consistent on kip) have now been practicing kips everyday, and most look beautiful now, while my DD has only gone backwards due to no practice opps.

Trying to avoid CGM, but this has been bothering me a lot, so seeking advice here to keep my cool. In each class/level/group she has been a part of since she walked into rec 18 months ago, she started as the least proficient, then zoomed to be the most proficient. She is now the most proficient in the L3 group and I feel like it is holding her back from attaining more. I see the girls in the L4 group that she was rapidly catching up to in the Spring (when she was training with them) now zooming ahead and looking beautiful, while she is stagnating on mill circle and being left far behind. I know 1000% in my heart of hearts that she would be right there with them if she was allowed. Honestly, I think they put her in L3 because the group is much smaller and they need more high scorers, and she is younger than most L4s and had not competed L3 (our gym starts you at L3 or L4, usually L3). That would be fine if she was still progressing, but it is SO hard to watch other girls continue to polish L4 skills while she doesn't get to try them nearly at all.

Thanks to anyone for reading my (long, oops) partial question/partial vent! I know at least 10 people will probably just tell me to 'relax and enjoy the ride, marathon, etc.' but that's not my need - I'm looking more for any logical perspective on whether my expectations of the training are accurate, or if my gauge is off. Is this the norm? Or would other coaches continue to uptrain a kid who had shown rapid progress? I just don't have any other reference points, so I'm seeking knowledge. Feeling CGM :(
 
Just my 2 cents, but if a kid wants to uptrain and has good form and work ethic, its a shame to not have them up training. DD lost a year of progression because she didn't up train AT ALL - but she's older and it was partly her choice (fear, etc). I really like what her new HC recently told the girls about competing the level they are proficient at SO THEY CAN UP TRAIN ALL YEAR....as in, it would be fine for your DD to compete L3 again but ideal for her to be learning new things at the same time....

I think your level of frustration is warranted - either there is something the coaches see that you don't (as in my DD case, her personal decision to stay back...) OR this may be an approach that won't work for your DD. I know for my kiddo, the old gym uptrained during comp season ONLY once routines and skills for comp level had been completed - DD simply took longer on her assignments, etc and never got to the uptraining...its possible there are things like that in play with your child. You can only know if you ask the coaches....
 
I'm agreeing with @gracyomalley...

Have you talked with the HC about why she got invited to train L4, but now she's not?
My DD moved up to L4 training in May, and we "just" found out that she will be competing L4 in Fall. Her kip has been a little inconsistent. So I'd understand if, after trying, she ended up staying L3 for competition. But it doesn't sound like there is anything clear cut about why your DD is not continuing to train L4?

I think you're going to have to ask. It's not CGM, it's a mom who just wants to know what is going on (providing you don't ask with an accusatory tone - LOL)
 
It is a fall season, yes. There are 5 meets total, starting in early September. So I understand that they are preparing for comp season coming. Uptraining stopped in late May when they told us definitively that she would compete L3, though, so that's partly why I'm questioning this philosophy. 16 hours per week seems like a lot to mostly be running routines that have been quite good, in her case, for a while. It feels like months of 'getting that last 10th', even though they verbally assured me they would continue uptraining with her.

And the reason we were given for doing L3 was that "She doesn't have a straight arm kip yet, and she doesn't have the FHS at all."

Well, they never let her even try or test the FHS in 10+ weeks of this supposed L4 training, and she was only given half the opportunity (or less) of the other L4s to train kips (split time between L3 and L4 practice groups since she was on the cusp), yet was progressing very well toward that goal.

I will bet a million dollars that she would have a straight arm kip like the other L4s that she was part-time training with by now and a very decent FHS if she had received the training for that. On days when she trained with the L4s, she easily got her squat on and whatever that L4 bar dismount is. Her FHS vault looked as good as at least half the L4s at the time. Back to flat-backs now.

This feels like going backwards to me. But again, I have no other data points to draw from, so that's why I'm looking for more perspectives here.

thanks again to anyone with thoughts - I read and soak in them all!!
 
If it's a fall season she's probably going to move up in a few months. Since she just started it seems entirely reasonable for her to do 5 meets of level 3 for a couple of months. The level 4 routines are much more complex and take more dance training and experience to compete well, even if she is talented at acquiring skills. Probably after the first meet there will b more skills. With the first meet coming up, routines will be at the forefront. I would try not to worry about it. It's a very short season and the main point if for her to gain experience in a level where she's comfortable.
 
I could have written most of your post myself. Really, very, very similar. I ended up switching DD to another gym, and she has progressed really quickly. She is currently training at least 2 levels ahead of where she would have been if I had left her at her old gym. Her former teammates (and their moms) think she is an amazing gymnast, and I just want to shake them and tell them NO! It's the training philosophy and coaching that are making the difference. Honestly, I think some of the girls at the old gym have more natural ability than DD, and it is being wasted by coaches who think girls scoring 37+ in L3 need to repeat.
 
This sounds like dds old gym's philosophy. We ended up switching and we are much happier. New gym's coaches says that training per level is wrong, there must be some up training.
 
In my opinion no uptraining is the worst possible way to coach.

Kids should not be competing at skills they can just barely do. Kids should just be perfecting the finer details of their current level skills. They should be learning skills at least one level up from their current level and they should at least be doing drills to train the body shapes for skills two levels up.

The kip is a great example. A lot of kids are not going to get this skill in a few short months, especially if they then stop working on it and start again after competitions. The coach doesn't have enough bars or enough eyes to watch kids do their routines constantly,there can be side stations where kids are working on drills for kips.

Your child is young, the main focus of their training at this stage should be skill learning. Competition is important as it builds their confidence to stand up and perform independently and to perform under pressure. But not important enough for all skill learning to stop for several months.
 
I know for my kiddo, the old gym uptrained during comp season ONLY once routines and skills for comp level had been completed - DD simply took longer on her assignments, etc and never got to the uptraining...

This is something else that bothers me in our gym. My DD also frequently explains (and I sometimes witness) things like "we didn't get to do kips today because not everyone got their shoot through". So the whole group is waiting there for little Susie and Jainey and Kylie to get their shoot-throughs before anyone can move to the next skill. And other days individuals are "invited" to try the next skill after X many successful Y skills, but with typically only 2 stations, 1 coach, and a lot of spotting and repetition of the younger ones, there is no time on the equipment to actually complete 5 mill circles, 5 shoot throughs, 5 dismounts (1 at a time, then back in line) before moving onto a kip, for instance. So they never get to those.

I'm just using bars as a quick example (and I see more of that since it's at a time when I drop off another child), but other events are run similarly.

The good news for the younger ones is that they have progressed a LOT in the last few months. And so have the L4s. My DD is in this unfortunate chasm where it just doesn't feel she is getting what she needs.
 
Have you talked with them about moving her to a different group? Is that even an option?
Unfortunately, not an option. The groups correspond to levels, so I don't think there is any way they would put her in the L4 group while she is technically an L3 and will compete in Sept. The L4s are training their routines, kipping nicely now and such, and I'm sure the coaches would see it as a burden to have a stray who is now behind the L4s skill-wise (thanks to no uptraining for near 3 months) and working different routines. And by the time comp season is over in November, the L4s will have far surpassed her in what they are working on, so she will likely remain with her current training group (most of whom are still struggling with at least some L3 basic skills) and I fear this whole thing will repeat itself.

I am now regretting not speaking up somewhere in the middle of that supposed L4 training a few months back to request/nudge harder for her to be considered and tracked into L4. I didn't say a word, trying to "trust the coaches and process", even though in my gut I saw time and her potential being wasted.

It would be a huge deal for us to switch gyms, so I certainly don't want to jump ship just yet, as I otherwise like the people, atmosphere, etc.

I will probably hang on to see how the first couple competitions go, and if they go quite well for her as the coaches seem to expect, revisit the question of uptraining and the plan for her progress.

She was feeling high as the moon when she was with the L4s and catching up quickly. Now, as they zoom on without her, I can see her confidence in herself stuttered as well.
 
One day she will be a level 4. Likely in a few months. If you like her gym and coaches I urge you to have a positive outlook on the situation as your child will take her cues from you. If you are worrying about how much she is working on kips and FHS, she will worry too because she wants to please you.

It doesn't sound like a lot of time or potential is being wasted, to be honest. It sounds like she's doing a very short season of level 3 after being given the opportunity to train 4 but coaches felt she would be more successful in 3. It sounds like she could be a level 4 in a few months.
 
This is something else that bothers me in our gym. My DD also frequently explains (and I sometimes witness) things like "we didn't get to do kips today because not everyone got their shoot through". So the whole group is waiting there for little Susie and Jainey and Kylie to get their shoot-throughs before anyone can move to the next skill. And other days individuals are "invited" to try the next skill after X many successful Y skills, but with typically only 2 stations, 1 coach, and a lot of spotting and repetition of the younger ones, there is no time on the equipment to actually complete 5 mill circles, 5 shoot throughs, 5 dismounts (1 at a time, then back in line) before moving onto a kip, for instance. So they never get to those.

I'm just using bars as a quick example (and I see more of that since it's at a time when I drop off another child), but other events are run similarly.

The good news for the younger ones is that they have progressed a LOT in the last few months. And so have the L4s. My DD is in this unfortunate chasm where it just doesn't feel she is getting what she needs.

That really is a concern, it says that your gym teaches to the syllabus and not the gymnast, this is often a sign of coaches that are not very innovative, which will be a problem later on.

It seems they are teaching to the lowest standard in the class rather than letting every child reach their own potential.
 
It's great to hear different perspectives and points of comparison to your own experiences. Thanks to all!

I, myself, have been continually alternating in my internal dialog between....

"This isn't feeling right, but don't worry so much, she's still just starting out, she should have a great L3 season, and there's still plenty of time. Maybe she'll catch right up on those skills she had and nothing will really be lost in a year."

and

"This is not feeling right, so beyond the L3 vs L4 short term outlook, I'm not sure we're doing the best we can for her long term progression with this coaching philosophy. It's increasingly clear she has better than average talent, and, though, not obviously a phenom, could possibly go quite a bit further with the right training (and of course, luck and all that)."

And yes, thanks @gymdog - the attitude I display is definitely of key importance, I agree. Though I have worked hard to only show enthusiasm and support in her presence, it's always good to be reminded to monitor that. I do worry as she is not one to ever complain or express negative feelings in front of others. Then she will retreat into her room and seem very sad sometimes (but deny it at first) and I have to lovingly pry to figure out what is going on. In class she is the epitome of focus and compliance to anything coaches ask, but it's clear to me that some things do bother her, and that has been the final nudge to me to start sharing and asking these questions with people who might have more experience and perspective than me. Thank you again!
 
I think the length of the season is probably key here. In my state a season goes Nov to May for all levels. If your daughter were training level 3, she'd be level 3 until next July 1st. But you said her meets are starting soon. Surely she didn't already know the routines, even if she knew the skills. So with the first meet coming up it seems reasonable to focus on routines. Will they not let her do the kip in level 3 bars? Maybe she can ask the coaches "what do I have to do to start my routine with a kip?"
 
This is something else that bothers me in our gym. My DD also frequently explains (and I sometimes witness) things like "we didn't get to do kips today because not everyone got their shoot through". So the whole group is waiting there for little Susie and Jainey and Kylie to get their shoot-throughs before anyone can move to the next skill. And other days individuals are "invited" to try the next skill after X many successful Y skills, but with typically only 2 stations, 1 coach, and a lot of spotting and repetition of the younger ones, there is no time on the equipment to actually complete 5 mill circles, 5 shoot throughs, 5 dismounts (1 at a time, then back in line) before moving onto a kip, for instance. So they never get to those.

I'm just using bars as a quick example (and I see more of that since it's at a time when I drop off another child), but other events are run similarly.

The good news for the younger ones is that they have progressed a LOT in the last few months. And so have the L4s. My DD is in this unfortunate chasm where it just doesn't feel she is getting what she needs.
We were at a gym like this before the current gym. It was not a good fit for my child at all. She is motivated by learning new skills. They drilled level one routines the entire year with absolutely no uptraining. They had her on level one (competed around here), but she had level 3 skills (lacking form). She was bored and scores were not improving at the meets. At current gym, she is at the level she will score best at, but she is uptraining level 3 and 4 skills. So, she's really enjoying herself and is eager to work. I haven't read all the responses, but I don't think competing at level 3 is a problem provided your DD is getting opportunity to make progress and uptrain. It doesn't sound like that is happening though, and that would bother me too.
 
I think the length of the season is probably key here. In my state a season goes Nov to May for all levels. If your daughter were training level 3, she'd be level 3 until next July 1st. But you said her meets are starting soon. Surely she didn't already know the routines, even if she knew the skills. So with the first meet coming up it seems reasonable to focus on routines. Will they not let her do the kip in level 3 bars? Maybe she can ask the coaches "what do I have to do to start my routine with a kip?"

Thanks, gymdog, I'll perhaps suggest she speak up about that again. She is not one to ask for things naturally. She is the quiet, compliant type in class. I personally asked the coaches if she could do exactly that back in late May when they they made the level decision, and they said "Of course, as long as she has straight arms by then." - so I assumed this would be worked on quite a bit, and she would likely have it ready. Since that time, she has had very infrequent opps to practice any kips, so this seems unlikely now unless something changes this month.

With our gym's official schedule, unless something really out of the ordinary happens, she will still officially be an L3 until the end of May/early June of next year. I would expect uptraining to ready for L4 to at least begin by Nov/Dec (after this L3 season). As for routines, she actually did have almost all of that under her belt before the 'final decision' in late May. She even had a fair amount of the L4 routines since she was 1/2 time in L3 practice group and 1/2 time in L4 from about Feb -May this past year. They worked a fair amount of the routines during Feb-May and polish the details from June-Aug, I'd say.

Thanks again for your continued perspective! Interesting that your season is much longer!
 
It sounds like they gave her a chance to do level 4 then and something wasn't a good fit. It may not be any of the things you mentioned. There are a lot of factors that go into placement. I guess I'm just not sure why they would be that motivated to not put her in 4 if she would be a perfect 4. The gyms that do that typically wouldn't have given the opportunity to train level 4 at all. I understand it's hard to feel like moving back after being given that opportunity, and not sure why they did it that way, frankly.

But I'm also giving them the benefit of doubt and assuming that since they considered it, there were some reasons that in her specific training environment it just wasn't a good fit. It may not have really been the major skills. It could have been basics or dance skills or how well she remembered the routines. I know you say "she was the same as the other girls" but parents without a gymnastics background often think that when there are tangible differences. Because explaining some of these things is hard for parents without a gymnastics background to understand, coaches sometimes just revert to referring to major skills that haven't been perfected. Personally I will usually try to be more detailed and give the opportunity to stay in the level and train without competing until ready. But even so some people aren't happy with this. Unfortunately because they've likely dealt with unreasonable parents , maybe even recently or ongoing, they might be afraid to put the kids anywhere other than where they can compete and score high without a struggle.

But overall it sounds like she'll be training level 4 in November...that is really not far off. So if you like the gym I don't think it's worth leaving over for a few months of level 3. They probably should have handled the transition better but they probably just didn't know how to explain it and goofed.
 
We were at a gym like this before the current gym. It was not a good fit for my child at all. She is motivated by learning new skills. They drilled level one routines the entire year with absolutely no uptraining. They had her on level one (competed around here), but she had level 3 skills (lacking form). She was bored and scores were not improving at the meets. At current gym, she is at the level she will score best at, but she is uptraining level 3 and 4 skills. So, she's really enjoying herself and is eager to work. I haven't read all the responses, but I don't think competing at level 3 is a problem provided your DD is getting opportunity to make progress and uptrain. It doesn't sound like that is happening though, and that would bother me too.

Thanks, AandAsmom,

I settled into being OK with competing L3 as well since they promised she'd still work new skills. Unfortunately, it just isn't happening yet, and, like you say your DD wasn't really improving in meets, I'm not sure all this routine drilling is really going to make much difference with mine either.

The L3 girls who still aren't competition ready are improving lots, as they get lots of attention. I'd be super happy if I was their mom. One was pulled off on a private vault session yesterday; others have been pulled over to work 1 or 2 on 1 with a coach to work on getting their ROBHS. I'm not counting minutes or anything (lol!) but it's obvious where the attention is going. And I don't begrudge these wonderful girls personal attention where they need it - I am just sad my DD isn't getting to work on things she was starting to gain as well.

It's great to hear you found a place where your DD is getting what she needs! Drilling L1 routines with girls who are ready for more sounds horrid, oh my! Thanks for sharing.
 

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