WAG 8th grade Verbal recruit

[Midwestmommy]

The point is not whether she (or any of us) should or would turn it down. That is missing the point entirely. The issue is that the system is broken and getting worse, and that the communication between the club coach and college coach should not be allowed that early, and the offer should not ever be allowed to be made in the first place. There are recruiting rules in place for a reason. They are turned into a joke by the communication allowed between club coaches and college coaches (this is not unique to just gymnastics), and these supposedly nonbinding "verbal commits" which are actually truly committments in this sport are dancing around/over/under the rules and spitting in the face of the intent of the NCAA guidelines.

The point is the huge pressure put on elementary age kids in gymnastics to train harder and longer in order to be recruitable younger and younger and younger, and the resulting collateral damage/injuries/pressure on younger and younger children. It is wrong, period. And those issues aside, it doesn't make sense for the college programs! Many coaches have gone on record saying that. Who knows even one 19 year old female whose body didn't change a lot between 7th grade and freshman year in college? It's silly, broken, and needs to be fixed. It's not the gyms into it up to their elbows or the parents of the kids who just committed who are the ones to fix it. It needs to be those with the power to do something and the ability to see the forest from the 10,000 foot level, not just a particular tree.....

I agree with the earlier poster, stricter rules and painful penalties to NCAA programs are the only way it could be fixed. Because the honor system ain't working.

 

[wallinbl]

The point is not whether she (or any of us) should or would turn it down. That is missing the point entirely.

My comment was in response to a specific statement, not an assessment of the overall situation.

I agree with the earlier poster, stricter rules and painful penalties to NCAA programs are the only way it could be fixed. Because the honor system ain't working.

I agree with this. Individual schools, coaches, and gymnasts can't change anything if everyone else is going to get away with it.

 

[Midwestmommy]

To the poster wanting to understand, its about the money. The small handful of kids who make the Olympics aside, NCAA is the pinnacle of the girlsgymnastics sport in the U.S. College eductions here cost $30,000 to $80,000 a year. Multiply by four and you get the picture.... Of course few parents or kids will turn that down, even when it means committing to a college only for a sport, before kids even know what educational path and career path they could possibly be interested in.

Formal committments are banned until much later and there are strict rules around the communication and visits. However, the guidelines have been turned into a joke by "verbal" committment which eat up many of the scholarship spots much earlier that what is supposedly allowed by the NCAA. The communication issue is danced around by the club coaches communicating with the college instead of the athlete.

1. It doesn't make sense for the college program, you just don't know what you are getting that early. But they are afraid they will miss out on good athletes since everyone else is doing it. Think lemings following each other off the cliff.....
2. It puts an enormous pressure on young children to train intensely hard to be ready to be recruitable. It's not just about the handful that commit, but also the huge impact on the sport and on many many children involved.

All these are issues in other sports too, but the nature of female gymnastics is that there is already huge pressure and kids to put in lots of hours very young to be able to participate competitively, and this is making that worse.

Boo, hiss to those who are making this problem worse and worse. That is not the kids, it's the SYSTEM which has been turned into a joke because of what money does to even the best of us..

Here's an example of what we parents see....when we take our kids into the premier orthopedic clinic in the metro area which treats most of the athletes from both the university and professional team. These people are making a living off of athletes, love sports, and many of them are pretty active themselves. And even they shake their heads at what is happening with elementary age and preteen kids in girls gymnastics. It's sometimes to the point where for parents it borders on embarrassing. So it rankles us when we see this kind of irresponsible stuff happening more and more.

And yes, I know, I know, some gymnastics insiders have the fallback position "you couldn't possibly understand" as an outsider to the sport. But you also gotta be able to see the forest not just each tree, and it seems those with the power to insert come common sense arent' doing it.

 

[fuzi]

I agree it is ridiculous and that recruiting should be happening in junior and senior year.

But this is all verbal: the gymnast or the college can change their mind at any time until signatures are on paper.

 

[gymmomtoo]

Totally agree with Midwestmommy here!

 

[bookworm]

I agree it is ridiculous and that recruiting should be happening in junior and senior year.

But this is all verbal: the gymnast or the college can change their mind at any time until signatures are on paper.

It might as well be binding because you rarely see it change...

 

[fuzi]

It might as well be binding because you rarely see it change...

I personally know of kids who got their offers revoked come senior year, when the school found someone "better" or the girl had a poor showing at Nationals.

More common though, the gymnasts pull out of these early verbal commitments because they win the Olympics or go pro. (Remember when Aly Raisman was committed to UF, anyone?)

 

[fuzi]

It's out of control in gymnastics though. My brother did another collegiate sport, and his highschool/club coaches had limited contact with colleges in his sophomore and junior year and all the decisions were made senior year, for everyone. He had visited a few schools (on his own dollar) to look at campuses as a junior, but not on official visits or meeting with the athletic department.

The thing is, it isn't going to change with gymnastics unless it is regulated, because no one wants to miss out on the "next big star" and the top schools are afraid the top gymnasts will get snatched up. I agree, the NCAA needs to step in and stop allowing commits, verbal or otherwise, until at least junior year. I'd say, as well, that college coaches shouldn't be having any conversations with these gymnasts about college before junior year.

 

[wallinbl]

It might as well be binding because you rarely see it change...

If it changed with regularity, it wouldn't hold any meaning at all.

 

[BachFlyer]

The coaches clearly and by default must be very involved for the conversations to even take place, so they have to take some of responsibility (or credit, depending on how you look at it) for the push. I sense that our coach feels that if the talent is there, the recruiters will come knocking at the appropriate time, and I agree with this outlook. However, after reading this post, I feel concerned about my child's chances.

I think what is so frustrating is that there are a ton of other 2019 and even 2020 graduates that competed L10 last year as 12 year olds or young 13s, many of whom made it to Nationals as a first year L10. I am probably biased as a parent of 2019'er that did both L9 and 10 last year and finished the season strong at Easterns. But there are other girls on her team the same age that are much more talented than my kid, and there's been no action yet for them either. I have to admit, it feels a lot like "insider trading" when there are other kids out there that have had substantial success, and haven't even had any bites at all, let alone a commitment.

Edited to say: BTW, I have no desire to have my child verballed any time soon, for the record. I just feel like it takes the motivation away from the girls and their families once the kids get into high school, if all but a few of the slots are left because they've all been given to younger kids that may quit or get hurt before they get out of middle school!

 

[gasrgoose]

Unfortunately, I doubt the NCAA has a solution to this anytime soon. The NCAA is broken with archaic and oppressive rules in some areas and relaxed non attentive rules in other areas. The big 5 conferences have all but threatened to leave the NCAA over football and player pay. The NCAA in a reactive move is trying to make changes now. The contradictions in the rules are endless and ridiculous.

My "pie in the sky solution" would be to have college gymnastics fall under the guidance of USA gymnastics. Of course that doesn't have a chance of happening unless the big 5 conferences do leave the NCAA which would effectively kill the NCAA. As others have mentioned similar problems exist in other sports, in particularly soccer.

The NCAA has ignored numerous problems as they have developed. In doing so they have created an environment where they most likely will cease to exist in the near future.

The real losers in this scenario are all the schools outside of the big 5 conferences. Having a national sports body like USA gymnastics govern a sport from the lowest levels to the highest sounds like a good plan to me.

 

[gymgal]

I saw this a few days ago. She has not even started 8th grade yet, so actually she is a 7th grader and is a year younger than most as a 2001 baby.

It needs to change.

She is technically a rising 8th grader, one of the youngest, with an August Birthday. But she will be graduating early so she is a rising 9th grader in terms of graduation. Yes, still very young for recruiting. And like I said, will be very young when entering College - just barely 17.

 

[bookworm]

If it changed with regularity, it wouldn't hold any meaning at all.

I'm not saying you don't see it change (Lexie Priessman comes to mind as one who did) and you'll also see kids who got injured or left the sport after "verballing" don't sign during the NLI period (they are usually listed on Collegegymfans as "not in release") so they don't end up with their scholarships either but it is more the exception than the rule with these thing.

I think it is just such huge pressure on little girls to perform well at such an early age to be on the recruiting radar...it's changed so much in just the past three years.... When my oldest went to JOs for the first time in 6th grade, no one even looked our way.....

 

[mimi]

As a parent it really just makes me sad. It is all too much, too soon. As far as I am concerned our generation of kids is living in a pressure cooker compared to what we did as kids. And believe me, I am guilty of perpetuating it with my own children for fear that they will be "left behind". Tough space for a parent to be in. It sure would make it easier if the NCAA was forced to back off until high school.

 

[happychaos]

The coaches clearly and by default must be very involved for the conversations to even take place, so they have to take some of responsibility (or credit, depending on how you look at it) for the push. I sense that our coach feels that if the talent is there, the recruiters will come knocking at the appropriate time, and I agree with this outlook. However, after reading this post, I feel concerned about my child's chances.

I think what is so frustrating is that there are a ton of other 2019 and even 2020 graduates that competed L10 last year as 12 year olds or young 13s, many of whom made it to Nationals as a first year L10. I am probably biased as a parent of 2019'er that did both L9 and 10 last year and finished the season strong at Easterns. But there are other girls on her team the same age that are much more talented than my kid, and there's been no action yet for them either. I have to admit, it feels a lot like "insider trading" when there are other kids out there that have had substantial success, and haven't even had any bites at all, let alone a commitment.

Edited to say: BTW, I have no desire to have my child verballed any time soon, for the record. I just feel like it takes the motivation away from the girls and their families once the kids get into high school, if all but a few of the slots are left because they've all been given to younger kids that may quit or get hurt before they get out of middle school!

YES!!! Our gym's 10 year old L9 is amazing!

Bach, your DD sounds amazing. I would totally feel the same as you. It makes me suspect that coaches have a bigger role in "selling" their gymnasts than I initially thought :/ And I don't think our coaches would be on board with that.

 

[gymgal]

Why exactly should we not discuss the specifics of a particular girl? Because it might hurt her feelings? Toughen up buttercup. You want to play college sports? Time to put on your big girl underwear (yes...even at the ridiculous age of 13). Politely wondering why Utah would commit this kid is WAY less harsh than the scrutiny athletes in other sports are subjected too. When you choose to play for a top 10 team, you'd better be prepared for critics. And as far as critics go, I think we're all pretty nice

Just my two cents ... This has nothing to do with the girl needing to toughen up. It has to do with we adults choosing to discuss a broader topic without the need of bringing in an athlete's accomplishments/shortcomings. Because, really, it doesn't matter whether she is an elite or a level 8 - recruiting at this age is wrong. That's the topic. Not whether she is "good enough" to warrant the commit at such an early age. And "the other sports critics are much harsher on their athletes" is not good argument for us doing it to ours. We should be looking to rise above and treat our athletes with more respect than other sports treat theirs...

 

[gasrgoose]

The coaches clearly and by default must be very involved for the conversations to even take place, so they have to take some of responsibility (or credit, depending on how you look at it) for the push. I sense that our coach feels that if the talent is there, the recruiters will come knocking at the appropriate time, and I agree with this outlook. However, after reading this post, I feel concerned about my child's chances.

I think what is so frustrating is that there are a ton of other 2019 and even 2020 graduates that competed L10 last year as 12 year olds or young 13s, many of whom made it to Nationals as a first year L10. I am probably biased as a parent of 2019'er that did both L9 and 10 last year and finished the season strong at Easterns. But there are other girls on her team the same age that are much more talented than my kid, and there's been no action yet for them either. I have to admit, it feels a lot like "insider trading" when there are other kids out there that have had substantial success, and haven't even had any bites at all, let alone a commitment.

Edited to say: BTW, I have no desire to have my child verballed any time soon, for the record. I just feel like it takes the motivation away from the girls and their families once the kids get into high school, if all but a few of the slots are left because they've all been given to younger kids that may quit or get hurt before they get out of middle school!

This ^^^^^^. Very well stated. This is the situation that presents itself over and over for parents and gymnasts.

When we left our old gym a secondary reason was the HC at the old gym was not aware of college recruiting and never spoke to a college coach. He believes the coaches will just find the good gymnasts. It seems obvious now that you/I need a HC that is plugged into the college recruiting scene and advocating for our gymnasts. I would prefer not to talk about when she is in 8th grade but I don't want to miss an opportunity for her either.

 

[gymgal]

It's out of control in gymnastics though.

It is happening all the time in soccer and football too. And I am sure some other sports, but those are the big ones.

 

[bookworm]

And as someone who has been there, done that , never discount ANY connection you have to any school or coach. I really believe that much of the committing process is "who you know" , at least to start...

Our former gym had a coach like gasrgoose's ("my gymnasts are good, they'll contact me") which is fine if you're an Olympian but for the rest of us, it doesn't work. My daughter was considered a "late commit" in the spring of her Junior year , and it was mostly because our old coach did zip to help us with the process.

At our current gym, coaches are heavily involved in recruiting and contacting schools and coaches and it's been a much easier process this time around

 

[happychaos]

Actually gymgal, I think this girl's level and accomplishments are very much fair game for discussion. We are discussing her gymnastics, not attacking her character. And most parents seem to be in agreement that we would not pass up this sort of opportunity for our DD's, even if we hate the system.

I think there is value in exploring why certain gymnasts get scholarships, and why other equally qualified girls are ignored. My DD is on track to be 13 year-old L9, but I have never, ever considered that that would be good enough for school like Utah.

If she were elite, no one would question why Utah wanted her. Sure, the age issue would still be there, but no one is surprised when top-level gymnasts commit to top NCAA programs. It is surprising, and discussion worthy when a gymnast who is NOT top-level (yet) is committing to a top-level program. There are lots of questions. It's odd when Makayla Skinner and a L9 who didn't even make Easterns are committing to the same program. Maykayla has the most difficult floor routine in the world, doesn't she?