WAG 8th grade Verbal recruit

[3rd_time_around]

It seems they are verbally committing younger and younger kids. I wonder why NCAA doesn't have rules against that or guidelines. Just crazy.

http://gymnasticsnewsnetwork.com/gymnastics-news-story-how-far-will-young-recruiting-go/

 

[3rd_time_around]

YES!!! Our gym's 10 year old L9 is amazing!

Bach, your DD sounds amazing. I would totally feel the same as you. It makes me suspect that coaches have a bigger role in "selling" their gymnasts than I initially thought :/ And I don't think our coaches would be on board with that.

And some coaches decide that some gymnasts aren't worth the effort or won't make it so they don't help them and focus all the attention and promotion on the favorites. I can't believe how often I've heard of, read about, and witnessed this. Recruiters to my dd's gym seem to spend the majority of time watching the 11-13 yr olds that are on the 9-10-elite levels. The juniors and seniors that haven't committed are discouraged at the lack of opportunities left.

 

[3rd_time_around]

no, it's not. all that matters is the "core" curriculum and the ACT test. MANY have blown standardized testing out of the water and then couldn't clear the clearinghouse for eligibility. that's a fact. but i'm NOT going to names names cause i don't do that. it's embarrassing if you know what i mean.

Are you saying grades and the ACT are most important? More than the SAT?

 

[3rd_time_around]

Y

Frankly, the "devastating injury and other health problems" make the situation MORE questionable, not less. No one is bashing her. Merely questioning Utah's reasoning for extending an offer to a L9 8th grader.

If the family doesn't want their daughter's gymnastics discussed publically, then perhaps you could suggest that they remove her public website that was obviously created to promote her. Gotta take the good with the bad.

As parents of gymnasts, many of us are interested in the process by which girls are recruited and given scholarships. Discussing the skills and achievements of gymnasts receiving these offers is relevant, and is perfectly acceptable, especially when the gymnast has a website with skill videos publically posted.

No one would ever suggest that "specifics" about football or baseball recruits should be off-limits. Why should it be so with gymnastics? Football fans like to analyze every detail and statistic available. There is no expectation that specifics of a particular player be left out of the discussion. That is just silly.

I wonder if I am the only one, but the more I learn about this gymnast and the recruiting process in general, the more discouraged I become. It seems like having aggressive coaches and attending the right camps were key for this gymnast. As has already been said, there are plenty of girls without offers that appear to be just as (if not more) qualified than this girl. Perhaps there are other factors that made this gymnast desirable beyond what her videos and scores would suggest.

Yes, no one told me that I HAD to send dd to college camps (note $600-$750) for her to even be considered. We just don't have the money to play this game.

 

[2G1B]

Are you saying grades and the ACT are most important? More than the SAT?

This was actually a discussion with our local school board. I'm also in GA and the school board was saying that many colleges are moving towards wanting that ACT instead of the SAT!

 

[3rd_time_around]

[QUOTE="
. You do not need to be a 13yr old L10 and commit in 9th grade to get a scholarship and even if nothing changes, chances are we till never get to that point.[/QUOTE]

You obviously do not know what you are saying here, because yes, you pretty much do today. Trust me. My daughter was awesome in 8th grade but this kind of recruiting was unheard of just 5 years ago. We were told we had plenty of time. But a couple injuries, some growth, and a bad day at one regionals, and my dd is pretty much a has been to recruiters. You should see the 8th and 9th grade parents scrambling to pack in recruiting trips and getting private lessons to progress faster, etc. it's all wrong! (The system, that is. I can't fault the parents and gymnasts who are afraid of missing their chance).

 

[cbifoja]

Are you saying grades and the ACT are most important? More than the SAT?

The kids in our state are required to take the ACT but not the SAT. The only kids who take the SAT around here are those who are applying to colleges who ONLY accept SAT scores. But every junior takes the ACT on the state's dime, regardless of college intent.

 

[cbifoja]

Kids, parents, and coaches should not have to feel pressure to have athletes ready to be recruited by seventh or eighth grade. That is insanity! What does that mean for all 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th graders who want to compete in this sport and have a dream of competing at college?

Before this thread, I thought that my DD had a chance to be looked at if she continues to work hard but now I'm feeling like maybe she's too old at the ripe age of 10 (getting prepared for her first year at L8). You're right....that is insanity.

 

[gymdog]

Are you saying grades and the ACT are most important? More than the SAT?

My understanding is most kids in the Midwest take the ACT. It's a regional thing. In the southeast it's the SAT. Most colleges accept both but if you're applying to what is known in the College Confidential crowd as a "top tier" school, you better take the SAT.

 

[profmom]

Yes, it's regional. My children will only take the ACT if they choose to apply to specific schools that require it. PSAT in the sophomore year for National Merit qualification, then SAT.

Remember also that the "sticker price" for college is often kind of like a sticker price on a car. Very few people end up paying exactly that figure. Yes, college is expensive, but if a school wants a particular kid for any reason, that tuition figure will go down. Colleges use very complex algorithms to develop their financial aid offers, and the majority of students at any given private institution who aren't paying full price probably aren't carrying NCAA scholarships. Things may be a little tighter at public universities, but there is still a substantial amount of aid available. Be sure to look at things like scholarships for academic excellence and honors college programs.

DD won't be competitive for a gymnastics scholarship, but I very much doubt that we will be paying full tuition for her unless she chooses our best in-state campus. Even if that's her choice, I expect they'll throw her something to encourage her to pick it over other options.

Is most of this crazy train being driven by colleges and coaches on both sides? Yes, absolutely. But I caution all of you as parents not to get over-invested in the athletic scholarship dream. It's lovely when it happens and enables a child to go to the right school for her/him, but it should in no way be a plan (unless we are talking about junior year or so). That way lies madness, with dads nearly getting into fist fights over batting orders in Little League games, and Tommy John surgeries for 12 year olds.

And I know you all know this, but it's worth saying again: the majority of girls who compete in college gymnastics do not have gymnastics scholarships.

 

[gymgal]

[QUOTE="
. You do not need to be a 13yr old L10 and commit in 9th grade to get a scholarship and even if nothing changes, chances are we till never get to that point..........
--------------------
You obviously do not know what you are saying here, because yes, you pretty much do today. Trust me. My daughter was awesome in 8th grade but this kind of recruiting was unheard of just 5 years ago. We were told we had plenty of time. But a couple injuries, some growth, and a bad day at one regionals, and my dd is pretty much a has been to recruiters. You should see the 8th and 9th grade parents scrambling to pack in recruiting trips and getting private lessons to progress faster, etc. it's all wrong! (The system, that is. I can't fault the parents and gymnasts who are afraid of missing their chance).

There are lots of girls that commit in their 10th grade year and many in their 11th. Even in senior year, there are a few. No, they are not the big name schools but they are good schools offering good education and team experience. So I stand by my comment that you don't need to commit in 9th grade to secure a scholarship - and certainly not to secure a non-scholarship spot. Your dd and family have had a rough time. You went through what we parents all fear - serious injuries, with bad timing on top of that, right in the middle of the whole recruiting process. But looking at it objectively from the recruiter standpoint, they are not going to want to risk taking a chance on a girl with these types of injuries until she has proven she can come back full strength - not when they have hundreds of other girls to choose from who are healthy and showing they have the skills the recruiters are looking for. It really stinks - I get that - but at the end of the day, the recruiters have to do what is best for their team.

 

[mpkbt]

GAgymmom...I just read the link you posted. I find that this quote was in the article quite funny.

Most of the NCAA coaches are not happy with this early recruiting trend, but they have to go along with it or miss out. Greg Marsden, head coach of Utah, in an interview for the Salt Lake Tribune, said, “It is a huge concern. It opens up the door for more problems down the road. People change and situations change, so someone you thought might be a good fit when they were in the eighth grade may not be a good fit when they are a senior, but you can’t wait, either, because everyone else is doing it. You have to play the game…every year recruiting has gotten earlier and earlier, and there isn’t much we can do about it.”

 

[Midwestmommy]

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i want to clarify something for everyone here. there is a huge difference between a 12 year old going to a college camp, being enamored and then telling the staff "i am coming to your school when i graduate high school. i've wanted to come here my whole life" (you know how young children talk). this could be called a "verbal commitment".

now take this same girl at a college camp. a college coach WILL NOT go up to this kid and state "we have a full athletic scholarship waiting for you when you graduate high school".

this would be a HUGE RULE VIOLATION. does everyone understand this? if i must, i will get Greg on here at some point to explain this all to you. can you imagine for just a minute that a college coach would do this...the kid grows up and it's now senior year...she's good...has had no injuries or set backs...been to Nationals twice...is a 38.00 all rounder...and then the college coach says we have no scholarship for you but you can walk on. or, sorry, we don't even have a walk on spot available to you. have you any idea the scandal that would become public if this were to happen? there would be lawsuits against those colleges and the NCAA every year if you were to believe some of what you all "hear" and "read".

now, please use your common sense to figure out what happened with this kid who you are all talking about who i don't even know about yet. last month, there were probably 1000 8th graders who went to college camps, or went to other camps where college coaches coach and told them "i'm coming to your school when i graduate high school. how good do i have to be? i've wanted to come to your school my whole life! i have a Gator clap shirt!" do all of you get it? the college coach responds "well if you work hard and you do well in school, and you have to do well in school cause that's the most important thing because you will be a student athlete in college, then we'll be happy to have you in our program." BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! kid goes home from camp and says "MOM!...DAD!!!...the coach from ABC University said they would love to have me on the team if i do well in school and work hard so i told them i'm coming there as soon as i graduate high school cause i've wanted to be on your team my whole life! (you know how kids talk). BOOM! you now have a verbal commitment and the parents start telling everyone that they know in gymnastics that this college coach "made an offer" to my kid to be on their team when they graduate high school. "they didn't make this offer to anyone else at the camp". "i think they'll be giving her a full scholarship". blah, blah, blah. and you can't believe how many parents have told others that their kid is on full athletic scholarship today at a university somewhere...and when we ask the college coaches how it is that they gave "so and so" a full athletic scholarship when she never qualified out of their state meet with a 33.00 all around...and the college coach responds "who in the hell told you "so and so" is on scholarship? she is a walk on and does 1 event for us".

and to clarify further...just because this same kid verbally commits in the 5th grade, a college coach will not tell them "no" whether they could be interested in them or not. they smile and say okay. what would you have them say to a 5th grader? 7th grader?? whoever??? it would be like telling them they'll never make the Olympics and crush the very dream that makes them work so hard in the gym every day. without dreams you have NO sport...or life for that matter. they tell them to work hard and do well in school so that they can get in to their school. that's what they tell them.

moreover, it is NOT necessary for an athlete to attend a college camp to secure a scholarship at that school. most of them don't attend ANY camp anywhere. they train in their gyms. that's not to say that kids attending their camps don't boost their operating budget. that's a good thing. most of these programs do NOT have the liberal budgets that the top 10 do.

finally, none of this doesn't mean that the college coaches don't know who the kids are coming out of Nationals. they do. they have the printouts. they put numbers on the kids at nationals identifying who is a "14", "15", "16", "17" and so on and so forth. and it doesn't mean that when they visit a gym to look at Susie who is in 11th grade that they don't sneak a peek over at Alice who is in the 8th grade to see how she is doing also. they do. and they don't talk to them cause they can't. it's a rules violation. they can't even talk to Susie cause she is only in the 11th grade.

yes, there is a problem. but most of the problem is created from all these stories that you hear about. and parents who are a bit delusional about what they think they understand their kid told them. things get lost in the middle. capiche? i don't like seeing college coaches and club coaches get thrown under the bus when most play by the rules. yes, club coaches lie to the parents about this and that when it has to do with their gymnasts. they do. and the college coaches don't like it one bit. and they hate it even more when a club coach does the "talking" for them when they were never authorized to speak for them in the first place. and yes, there are a couple of college coaches that are just as bad. everyone who needs to know knows who they are too.

and if some of you remember my previous post from a couple of years ago about who to blame for all this??? not gymnastics or the people in it. blame Mia Hamm and soccer and those people who are in it. they started it. not us.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Are you saying grades and the ACT are most important? More than the SAT?

go to the Clearinghouse and read the minimum requirements to clear the Clearinghouse. it's not much but it's something. and clearing the Clearinghouse will clear you to be recruited, offered a walk on spot or even a scholarship. but the schools admission metrics might supersede that of the Clearinghouse and what you have might not be enough to even get you admitted. remember, they don't HAVE to admit you due to their admission metrics. BUT...this doesn't mean a college coach won't go to bat with the AD and Admissions if the coach wants that kid more than Mary Lou Retton. capiche?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Does anyone have stats on how many verbal commitments have actually signed with their colleges? I was wondering because the gymnast at DD's gym who got a full scholarship to a Division 1 school did not decide on this college until last summer. Her friend from another gym just signed with another Division 1 school this summer (unsure whether she was offered a scholarship though). I will say that the gymnast from DD's gym did compete at Nationals all 3 of her level 10 years which helped her get noticed, I am sure.

anyone's guess would be as good as mine. as i posted...there were probably 1000 8th graders that told a college coach that they are coming to their school when they grow up cause they have a "Gator clap" shirt. lol

 

[Deleted member D3987]

My impression is that the verbals are as valuable and binding on both parties as the paper they're written . . . oh yeah.

there is no "paper" as you have facetiously pointed out. the only paper document that matters is in their senior year when they sign their NLI or National Letter of Intent. until then... well you get the drift.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Here are some more statistics I would like to see. If we are going to "professionalize" this sport starting at age 6 in the US--requiring home school, no other outside activities, require kids to be in the gym 20+ hours a week, ban kids over a certain age from being considered for competition track, assigning NCAA scholarships before eighth grade (and therefore requiring top peak performance level by age 13):

1. List of clubs that won't let you in their "fast track" program (that being the one which would put kids on track for having some chance at Division 1), unless you:

Home or online school kids aged 5-7
Home or online school kids aged 7-9
Home or online school kids aged 10-12


Of those kids who met this requirement before age 10, what percentage competed at the Olympics? What percentage will stay in the sport and got Division 1 scholarships?

Provide data for 10 years ago and today for comparison.


2. Statistics about number of injuries compared to 5 other sports for girls, grouped by seriousness of injury, dollars paid, who paid for these injuries (employer self-funded plan, employer insurance plan, individual insurance policy, Medicaid).

5-7
7-9
10-12
13-14
15-17
18+

3. How many kids are spending 15-21 or 22+ hours in the gym in these age groups:

5-7
7-9
10-12
13-14
15-17
18+

4. Of those listed in 3 above, how many had either serious acute or chronic injuries before age 15 causing them to leave the sport?


Of course, this is tongue and cheek. These statistics are not available.

But it would appear the crazies are driving the bus when girls not even entering 8th grade are being offered Division 1 scholarship spots. If people in this sport aren't able to steer the bus, then I suppose eventually someone else will have to step in to force them to stay on the road. As a society in the United States, we do have some standards left (I think).

Stricter recruiting rules, sanctions and fines would appear to be the only way to make it happen.

By the way, parents and kids currently in the recruiting process have the most to lose and of course are not going to turn down a scholarship spot to make a point, I wouldn't. They aren't the ones to fix it.

in bold. but they are not i'm happy to say.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

your questions have already been answered. She attended a UTAH camp. She is in a high level gym (just won usg-gym gym of the year) with a history of young commits (glenns to UCLA in 9th), national coaches saw her at her own gym (assuming there for one of the Glenn sisters) and requested they submit a developmental camp video (along with a couple other teammates) , she is not a first year L9. She is a first year L10, she didn't make easterns due to a mishap on beam, which is usually a strong event for her. Otherwise she would have made it.

The recruiting process certainly maddening and frustrating but it is not rocket science. Enough has been posted on this site and other sites to know what needs to be done. Networking (coaches, parents, administrators, school counselors), the potential for several years in 10, consistent scores, the ability to meet the college requirements, exposure through nationals, camps, websites. All you can do is the best you can and know that it was enough. It is not any different than anything else in life.

And let's remember that we are only really talking about the top 20 teams. There are dozens more that generally do wait until sophomore year and later to offer commitments. Again, I totally agree those top 20 should be reigned in but let's not blow this out of portion. You do not need to be a 13yr old L10 and commit in 9th grade to get a scholarship and even if nothing changes, chances are we till never get to that point.

it's actually just a couple in the top 10. and a few more between 10 and 25th.

 

[iwannacoach]

Is it possible to sonogram a commitment?????