WAG How do coaches decide who moves up and who repeats a level?

[JBS]

My DD never scored a 36 in old 5 or old 6. She scored .25 below a 37 in L7, and will be L8 this year. Under these requirements, she would still be at old L4.

No she wouldn't...read the line where it says that we bring in judges before season. She would have easily gotten a 36 in our system if she was going to be a 37 at L7.

That's what you all don't get...many of these systems are just for parents.

 

[JBS]

My DD never scored a 36 in old 5 or old 6. She scored .25 below a 37 in L7, and will be L8 this year. Under these requirements, she would still be at old L4.

Also...under our new system your DD would not have done both of those levels. She would have done one of the following...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Nothing in Spring >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)

Using the new levels...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L6 >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for L5/6 except for USAG mobility)

Keep in mind that the second season of L4 fulfills our mobility of 36 OR two seasons...so they can then bump through without a 36 as long as they are safe and have their skills.

EDIT: Before everyone asks...YES...our ideal path is to go up a level...then back down a level...then up two levels. This allows us to remain fairly competitive in compulsories in our state while still adhering our training style.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Also...under our new system your DD would not have done both of those levels. She would have done one of the following...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Nothing in Spring >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)

Using the new levels...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L6 >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for L5/6 except for USAG mobility)

Keep in mind that the second season of L4 fulfills our mobility of 36 OR two seasons...so they can then bump through without a 36 as long as they are safe and have their skills.

EDIT: Before everyone asks...YES...our ideal path is to go up a level...then back down a level...then up two levels. This allows us to remain fairly competitive in compulsories in our state while still adhering our training style.

Wow, that is one of the most honest responses I have ever seen here from a coach/gym on their approach. Refreshing!

 

[Anna's_Mom]

Our gym has a strict 36 AA at a meet to move up, plus "no reduction in effort after meeting the 36 requirement". But this is a new team (2nd year), where everyone started out as a L3. In the first year, only 3 girls moved to L4. This year 12 out of 14 L3s have already met the 36 requirement for next season. The team doesn't start training new skills for the next level until the end of this season, so the girls can't be judged on how competent they are on the new level skills before having their next season level set. My daughter just qualified to move up this weekend and is super excited. After two seasons of listening to the L3 floor music, I'm equally excited just so I don't have to listen to it after the next 4 weekends.

At least, that was what it was so far. However, this weekends meet has caused a tizzy because the 3 L4 girls won team overall by score, but weren't awarded the win or trophy because they didn't have 5 girls at that level. So, I have a sneaky suspicion that a couple of our more talented L3s are going to suddenly be L5 for next season.

I like the fact that the rule has been pretty "cut and dried" as it has avoided some of the pushier parents causing problems. That said, when my daughter ended last season with a 35.9 as her best AA, she was pretty upset to have to repeat the level.

 

[Quadqueen]

Also...under our new system your DD would not have done both of those levels. She would have done one of the following...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Nothing in Spring >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)

Using the new levels...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L6 >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for L5/6 except for USAG mobility)

Keep in mind that the second season of L4 fulfills our mobility of 36 OR two seasons...so they can then bump through without a 36 as long as they are safe and have their skills.

EDIT: Before everyone asks...YES...our ideal path is to go up a level...then back down a level...then up two levels. This allows us to remain fairly competitive in compulsories in our state while still adhering our training style.

It's good that you have options. Our old gym was strictly at least one level/year - we have no fall compulsories/spring optionals here, so when you compete a level, you do it from fall through spring. I just think it's a shame when some gyms have these strict move up score requirements and the kids could have a successful season at the next level, but are kept back for an entire year.

 

[motigymnasticsmom]

Our gym has a strict 36 AA at a meet to move up, plus "no reduction in effort after meeting the 36 requirement". But this is a new team (2nd year), where everyone started out as a L3. In the first year, only 3 girls moved to L4. This year 12 out of 14 L3s have already met the 36 requirement for next season. The team doesn't start training new skills for the next level until the end of this season, so the girls can't be judged on how competent they are on the new level skills before having their next season level set. My daughter just qualified to move up this weekend and is super excited. After two seasons of listening to the L3 floor music, I'm equally excited just so I don't have to listen to it after the next 4 weekends.

At least, that was what it was so far. However, this weekends meet has caused a tizzy because the 3 L4 girls won team overall by score, but weren't awarded the win or trophy because they didn't have 5 girls at that level. So, I have a sneaky suspicion that a couple of our more talented L3s are going to suddenly be L5 for next season.

I like the fact that the rule has been pretty "cut and dried" as it has avoided some of the pushier parents causing problems. That said, when my daughter ended last season with a 35.9 as her best AA, she was pretty upset to have to repeat the level.

Now, that wouldn't have to bother DD, because that would greatly irritate me.

 

[JBS]

It's good that you have options. Our old gym was strictly at least one level/year - we have no fall compulsories/spring optionals here, so when you compete a level, you do it from fall through spring. I just think it's a shame when some gyms have these strict move up score requirements and the kids could have a successful season at the next level, but are kept back for an entire year.

This system has not been in place too long...but it is already working nicely. The team is competitive in our state at certain levels...L3...L4...then we get them to optionals. Basically we wanted a system that would help all of our gymnasts be more successful...while still allowing the ones that could gain optional skills to get through fairly quickly.

Not sure how it is in everyone elses state...but how you do in compulsories around here simply depends on what level you compete your athletes.

Some call it sandbagging or cheating...but when you are going up against L4's that have giant flyaways and lightly spotted blind changes...you have to start playing the game...or your team will always be non-competitive.

We don't cheat or sandbag...we simply train our athletes according to our program.

 

[Bajanswife]

Also...under our new system your DD would not have done both of those levels. She would have done one of the following...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L5 >> Spring L6 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L5 >> Nothing in Spring >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)

Using the new levels...

1. Two Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for old L6 except for USAG mobility)
2. Three Year Plan - Fall L4 >> Spring L5 for USAG mobility (only 1 or 2 meets) >> Fall next season two meets plus State L4 >> Spring L6 >> Nothing in Fall >> Spring L7 (we have no requirements for L5/6 except for USAG mobility)

Keep in mind that the second season of L4 fulfills our mobility of 36 OR two seasons...so they can then bump through without a 36 as long as they are safe and have their skills.

EDIT: Before everyone asks...YES...our ideal path is to go up a level...then back down a level...then up two levels. This allows us to remain fairly competitive in compulsories in our state while still adhering our training style.

Repeating L4 in a system like this isn't bad, because at the same time the kid gets to uptrain, compete L5 in between, and work towards optionals. You aren't doing 2 full years at L4 - you are basically doing one season plus a second short season (2 meets) that ends with State. I can see most girls being OK with that.

 

[JBS]

Repeating L4 in a system like this isn't bad, because at the same time the kid gets to uptrain, compete L5 in between, and work towards optionals. You aren't doing 2 full years at L4 - you are basically doing one season plus a second short season (2 meets) that ends with State. I can see most girls being OK with that.

Yes...it's not bad at all...schedule looks like this for these kids...

• Meet #1 - November - L4
• Meet #2 - November - L4
• Meet #3 - December - L4 State
• Extra Meet - January - L6/7 (not built into season cost...need to add the cost of the meet entry to account)
• Extra Meet - January - L6/7 (not built into season cost...need to add the cost of the meet entry to account)
  
• Meet #4 - February - L6/7
• Meet #5 - February - L6/7
• Meet #6 - February - L6/7
• Meet #7 - March - L6/7
• Meet #8 - March - L6/7 State

Many of our athletes opt into the extra meets for a 10 meet season.

 

[kandkfunk]

@JBS - I am assuming the schedule above is for their second year, correct? They have already done their level 5 score out meet the previous year? I think a lot of parents would get behind a schedule like that, especially if it's laid out nicely in black and white.

I am not a big fan of the required move up score, but all gyms my DD was at had them (usually 36AA one or two times). Although the coaches always reserved the right to disregard the requirement if it was the right decision for the athlete. My DD did not meet the score out requirements for old level 6, but she still moved up to level 7 and did just fine. On the flip side, I've seen girls meet the score out requirement and still not move up for other reasons.

 

[JBS]

@JBS - I am assuming the schedule above is for their second year, correct? They have already done their level 5 score out meet the previous year? I think a lot of parents would get behind a schedule like that, especially if it's laid out nicely in black and white.

I am not a big fan of the required move up score, but all gyms my DD was at had them (usually 36AA one or two times). Although the coaches always reserved the right to disregard the requirement if it was the right decision for the athlete. My DD did not meet the score out requirements for old level 6, but she still moved up to level 7 and did just fine. On the flip side, I've seen girls meet the score out requirement and still not move up for other reasons.

Yes...second year...so they will likely get their 36's. If not...they still advance as long as they are safe and have their skills because they have fulfilled our requirement of two 36's or two seasons.

 

[Seeker]

Some call it sandbagging or cheating...but when you are going up against L4's that have giant flyaways and lightly spotted blind changes...you have to start playing the game...or your team will always be non-competitive.

We don't cheat or sandbag...we simply train our athletes according to our program.

That is crazy!!

 

[Midwestmommy]

This is exactly what seems to happen from a few gyms in our area. My daughter has friends at other gyms that placed in the top 15 (all age categories combined) at level 4 that are repeating level 4. Not the exception, but the majority.. They may even have already scored out of 5 and will show up in level 6 or 7 this winter. Or they will score out next spring or fall in 5 and will show up in 6 or 7 next winter. Lots of the top scoring kids at state in levels 4 and 5 are probably already well on their way to (already training) skills for level 7. Our gym doesn't do that for most of the girls, I guess it does work for marketing for the other gyms.

What are you going to do. Just have your kids go out there are do their best and cheer them on. I like that we compete the level the girls are training at the gym for most of the athletes, we just need to explain the different philosophies to the kids and hope they understand.

And I can see JBS's point, once one of the bigger gyms start doing it, the others will follow. These are for-profit businesses, so in that sense it's not crazy, it's a rational decision... It can give the image of higher coaching quality and athletes, where in reality to some degree it's just a different approach to where/level the kids compete.. Yeah, it's sandbagging but one can see why it happens... then happens more... and more... in a geographical region.

One possible thought for the gym who doesn't do this is to get them out of 5 as quickly as possible and compete in level 6 instead where a couple of the "big gyms" don't compete at all.... It's a way for your girls to avoid a few of the sandbagging gyms for a year or two at some of the competitions...

 

[gracyomalley]

I suspect some of this varies a great deal by region....here in our little state/little region, there are only a few gyms that really uptrain for the next levels consistently, and they really stand out! DD was previously on a team that didn't do much of that and had reasonable, but lenient move up standards - about a 34 and able to compete the skills safely with the expectation of getting to state (which is only a 32 AA) for compulsories, and in optionals there was a blanket "no one does more than 2 years a level" plan....this led to lots of relatively happy compulsory athletes, and a gym atmosphere that was inclusive (a plus with younger kids in particular), but many kids hit optionals without the required DEPTH of skills/training to stay with it through the higher levels...

New gym is going against the grain for our region - tough move up (2 X 36 - which in our region is fairly rare - usually places you in top 1/4 at each level, no in house meets to meet this requirement), and kids are required to have all the skills - and I mean really have them - not basic L8, but a L8 skill set that would allow you to spend the year training L9, etc. MANY kids have needed 3 years of an optional level (usually 7 or 8) to get to the point that they can confidently move forward in this program (its fairly new to the area, so not a lot of kids have come up through compulsories like this - I suspect they will need less repeat in optionals once its been in place as compulsories....).

What is very interesting to me is that FAR Fewer girls are quitting in this system than did at DD old gym - even though they may be repeating over and over....

HC must be doing something right as the girls hitting L9 (highest she's got so far here) are working L10 skills even before season starts, and it goes on down the line that way. I suspect there will be more kids making it to 10 from this gym as time goes by - maybe at age 15-17 - but still, they won't have quit.

The only time this system is hard is for the kids transferring in after being in other gyms - where move up was a given and NOT moving up a failure....no matter what level kids compete here they are ALWAYS pushing themselves to work on whatever the next skill is they need - and each kid has a different "plan"...I think this is how the HC is balancing the larger team - strict competition standards, but individual training plans for each kid, with long term being the goal, not that year only.

In the end it may look a little like sandbagging - especially in our area where few do it this way - and I have the creeps thinking about DD competing a level she already placed quite highly in consistently - BUT then I look at the large number of teens working happily away at getting the skills they need, overcoming fears, setting personal best goals, and not "moving on" just because of frustration, and I know this is a good way to go - not sure if DD is "too far gone" in the mentality of the old system, to make it work, as she personally is only hearing all the things she "can't do yet" and not all the positive stuff the coaches are saying, but I think its a developmentally appropriate way to coach kids through adolescence and will make for better, safer gymnasts and more well adjusted young adults....NEVER would have looked at it this way in the past, BTW

 

[JBS]

Yes...definitely a new way for us to think as a club...but it definitely creates a much more positive training environment...positivity builds confidence...confidence builds self esteem and skills...kids stick around longer. It's fun to be a part of a successful team.