WAG Kip arm bend

[munchkin3]

So another post got me thinking. In almost every L4-L5 routine I have seen lately, including the USAG videos, there is a slight arm bend during the kip. What is acceptable, normal?
It seems almost impossible not to bend a tiny bit at the elbow for kip cast squat on.

 

[profmom]

My string bean daughter took that deduction all the way into L7! Really noticeable (and a deduction magnet) for boys and girls with long arms.

 

[ascarter1]

.3 deduction for every arm bend.

 

[munchkin3]

Yes, I know but I want to see what the L4 or L5 routine look like with straight arms ALL THE WAY to cast......there is always an arm bend...
can anyone post one?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

there should be NO bend at the elbows.

 

[chalkbowl]

Yes, I know but I want to see what the L4 or L5 routine look like with straight arms ALL THE WAY to cast......there is always an arm bend...
can anyone post one?

There may be a slight bend on the low bar of this one...but high bar looks pretty straight to me.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Well,,, I had to get permission first, but here ya go.

 

[profmom]

Wow, beautiful routines! The second one reminded me a lot of one of DD's teammates when they were both competing L5 and L6 and in the same workout group a few years ago -- she's moving up to L9 this year. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

there should be NO bend at the elbows.

I can't recall ever seeing a kip cast handstand that had absolutely no arm bend while loading the cast. Like, ever. At any level.

And honestly, I think it would make more sense for there not to be a deduction, so long as it occurs during the cast-prep phase and the bar remains at the hips. The gymnast needs to get both the feet and shoulders in front of the bar, and for most gymnasts (especially those with long arms and short torsos), this simply isn't feasible. Not because of a lack of strength or technique, but simply because the geometry of the skill doesn't quite work with straight arms.

(I also think there should be no deduction for arching in a cast, but that's a different matter).

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I can't recall ever seeing a kip cast handstand that had absolutely no arm bend while loading the cast. Like, ever. At any level.

And honestly, I think it would make more sense for there not to be a deduction, so long as it occurs during the cast-prep phase and the bar remains at the hips. The gymnast needs to get both the feet and shoulders in front of the bar, and for most gymnasts (especially those with long arms and short torsos), this simply isn't feasible. Not because of a lack of strength or technique, but simply because the geometry of the skill doesn't quite work with straight arms.

(I also think there should be no deduction for arching in a cast, but that's a different matter).

never? Only posting these because I have permission and I am to lazy to ask for permission from other parents...
But I have seen plenty of straight arms casts.

 

[wandrewsjr]

.3 deduction for every arm bend.

It's up to 0.3 for arm bend. So, 0.05 for slight bend, up to 0.3 for extremely bent.

 

[gymgal]

I can't recall ever seeing a kip cast handstand that had absolutely no arm bend while loading the cast. Like, ever. At any level.

dd has had a straight arm kip to HS with no elbow bend (not even slight) since midway through L7. There are many examples on you tube as well. Just look up things like state/regional bar champion for any level 7 and up.

 

[Aero]

The shoulder girdle has to be fully elevated during the loading phase of the cast (when they are planched and piked) in order to avoid an elbow bend. In order to even do a cast, the hands (and bar) have to line up with the hips in order for the body to hinge around the bar. By shrugging the shoulders as high up near the ears as possible during the load phase of the cast, the elbows can remain straight. Theoretically though, if a gymnast had long enough arms or a short enough torso to where even a fully elevated shoulder girdle would not put her hands at the same height as her hips, it would be impossible to cast to handstand with straight arms. It's all about anatomy and body structure.

 

[gymdog]

There may be a slight bend on the low bar of this one...but high bar looks pretty straight to me.

See to me (and this is a fine routine) she's kind of riding her kip momentum to cast with straight arms instead of actually planching over the bar. Some people HAVE to do this to keep based on their body structure, though most people don't HAVE to but it's easier for them. Ultimately if the child in that video drove her legs to handstand she'd have to bend her arms. She didn't even hit horizontal (I don't want to knock the routine, just trying to discuss the technical aspect. I have kids who do this too). If you compare to the video coachp posted then you see the difference.

For some kids it's incredibly easy to planche over the bar. That's why a certain body type has such an advantage on bars. It is easier to do when you're built a certain way. Doesn't mean other people can't go far by achieving as much of the correct technique as possible, similar to what happens when some of those bars people go to vault.

I have a child who really has to ride her momentum or bend her arms, I literally can't force her into the correct position out of a kip unless she widens her arms, but once she leans a little with her legs back a bit she can do it, thank goodness for straddle casts.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

never? Only posting these because I have permission and I am to lazy to ask for permission from other parents...
But I have seen plenty of straight arms casts.

First one it's hard to visually isolate the arm from the torso enough to tell.

Second one definitely has a slight arm bend in every cast hand stand. It's very slight, but it's there, and you can see it if you pause on the right frame.

dd has had a straight arm kip to HS with no elbow bend (not even slight) since midway through L7. There are many examples on you tube as well. Just look up things like state/regional bar champion for any level 7 and up.

Got a video?

I suppose it's possible in principle for a gymnast with short arms and a long torso.

But try this: Stand straight up, with your arms straight by your side. Shrug your shoulders up as high as you can, and see where your palms are in comparison to your hips. If your palms are lower than your hip bone (which I guarantee they will be for almost all of you), then it's geometrically impossible for you to pike (ie what you're supposed to do to load a cast) while holding a bar at your hips without bending your arms (unless you put the arms impractically wide).

Now, for many gymnasts this bend can be very slight, and they can (and should) straighten the arms the instant the hips leave the bar. But unless your arms are shorter than your torso, you simply cannot pike around the bar while keeping the arms straight. It's not a matter of strength or technique.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Geoffrey , if you do not see any arm bend in the 1st video then, it's okay to say so.
2nd video, 1st cast she is pirouetting on one arm which is completely locked out and her other arm is bent because it is coming off the bar turning, its an early shift pirouette..... During a kip cast the elbow itself rotates inward (towards the back) during the kip and outward a little from the kip compression to the cast handstand, which changes the view angle of the elbow during the cast.... During the second cast I see a slight elbow bend (left arm), hard to tell if it's really a bend or just the angle, but it's when she is almost in H stand, not during the compression phase that you speak of . (I will beat her tomorrow for that. Now on the other hand look at the elbows in the toe shoots and stalders, totally bent,,,, I know I work with these two every day. get your arms straight, get your arms straight, get your arms straight.......... I seriously doubt either of these two got any deduction for bent arms during the casts.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Geoffrey , if you do not see any arm bend in the 1st video then, it's okay to say so.

I can't tell whether there is or not, but concede it is possible there is not.

2nd video, 1st cast she is pirouetting on one arm which is completely locked out and her other arm is bent because it is coming off the bar turning, its an early shift pirouette..... During a kip cast the elbow itself rotates inward (towards the back) during the kip and outward a little from the kip compression to the cast handstand, which changes the view angle of the elbow during the cast.... During the second cast I see a slight elbow bend (left arm), hard to tell if it's really a bend or just the angle, but it's when she is almost in H stand, not during the compression phase that you speak of.

During points in the routine where her arms are locked out, you can see that they very slightly hyperextend. During the loading phase of the cast, this hyperextension does not appear to be present, leading me to believe she's slightly flexing at the elbows.

(I will beat her tomorrow for that. Now on the other hand look at the elbows in the toe shoots and stalders, totally bent,,,, I know I work with these two every day. get your arms straight, get your arms straight, get your arms straight.......... I seriously doubt either of these two got any deduction for bent arms during the casts.

Nor should they. Which is my entire point; I have no problem with arms bending during a cast, so long as the bend is the minimum allowed by the gymnast's particular body type.

It's a very pretty routine overall.

 

[munchkin3]

We are talking about L4/5/6 and this was EXACTLY my question! It seems there is some gray area here. Some judges may consider an 'unlocked' elbow OK, others may take it as a bent arm. I have seen straight arm kips in upper levels (level 7+ and pirouettes etc) but for L4 and up?, it is rare to see the arms locked out the entire way from glide, Kip, cast. The one gymnast from wildfire does do this and is a great example of what I wanted to see.
I guess there is a difference between that routine, and then the kind of kip cast where the kid has to push up to cast and bend their arms a bit. Most of these gymnasts are getting hit with at least .1 deduction for both kips hence the reason I have not seen a perfect 10 on bars lately. Anyway, aren't you supposed to kip, keep your feet in front of the bar when you are in support, and then launch your hips up to cast? I don't think this is possible without bending your elbows. But then again, this is after the actual kip.
The reason I wanted to ask is when my DD stresses out about straight arms for bars, and questions why no one on her L4 or L5 team can do it its because it is the ideal, in a perfect gymnastics world sense, but not the norm. My DD is not there yet and that's fine with me. But she is working her butt off like the perfectionist she is! (I'll tell her not to worry about the darn elbow bend!)

 

[gymgal]

Got a video?

I have several, but I don't post her videos on CB. dd has ubersense so you can see it in super slow motion. She has hyperextension of the elbows as she prepares for the cast and keeps this until HS. she uses a straddle cast if that makes a difference. She has a relatively short torso, long arms, long legs.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the best bar workers at any level including Olympian's have straight arms on everything.

my best workers have perfectly straight arms.

kids that have hypermobile elbows have a very difficult time keeping straight arms. they must be taught to pronate their arms when they cast.