WAG Kip arm bend

[Geoffrey Taucer]

the best bar workers at any level including Olympian's have straight arms on everything.

my best workers have perfectly straight arms.

kids that have hypermobile elbows have a very difficult time keeping straight arms. they must be taught to pronate their arms when they cast.

Arms bent as she loads the cast at 0:14. Again (though not as much) at 0:22. Again at 0:28.




Arms bent as she loads the cast at 0:33. Again at 0:43. Again at 0:50. And 0:55.


I can keep going. Liukin. Bross. Douglas. All of them have a slight bend as they reach the top of their kips and prepare to cast.

 

[munchkin3]

Thanks GT,
My DD's kips look just like Simones....YAY!! LOL I knew my DD had Olympic potential!!!
(not)
c'mon dunno, are you really trying to compare Elite kips with compulsory ones? Even when the Elites get 'excused' bent arms? (then again maybe they did loose .10 for bent arm kips?)
I'm just trying to figure out what is acceptable. Maybe a slight bend at the top of the kip is acceptable and should be ok for USAG standards?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Well, I guess if I get really bored I will put together a collection of straight arm kip cas

We are talking about L4/5/6 and this was EXACTLY my question! It seems there is some gray area here. Some judges may consider an 'unlocked' elbow OK, others may take it as a bent arm. I have seen straight arm kips in upper levels (level 7+ and pirouettes etc) but for L4 and up?, it is rare to see the arms locked out the entire way from glide, Kip, cast. The one gymnast from wildfire does do this and is a great example of what I wanted to see.
I guess there is a difference between that routine, and then the kind of kip cast where the kid has to push up to cast and bend their arms a bit. Most of these gymnasts are getting hit with at least .1 deduction for both kips hence the reason I have not seen a perfect 10 on bars lately. Anyway, aren't you supposed to kip, keep your feet in front of the bar when you are in support, and then launch your hips up to cast? I don't think this is possible without bending your elbows. But then again, this is after the actual kip.
The reason I wanted to ask is when my DD stresses out about straight arms for bars, and questions why no one on her L4 or L5 team can do it its because it is the ideal, in a perfect gymnastics world sense, but not the norm. My DD is not there yet and that's fine with me. But she is working her butt off like the perfectionist she is! (I'll tell her not to worry about the darn elbow bend!)

==
Well, you were given two examples of compulsory straight arms. You can see in the second video the child is piked feet in front of the bar, with hyperextended elbows. Most coaches think it normal to bend the arms and some don't, bottom line the "most" don't beat the "some". So yes it is rare but so is winning.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Thanks GT,
My DD's kips look just like Simones....YAY!! LOL I knew my DD had Olympic potential!!!
(not)
c'mon dunno, are you really trying to compare Elite kips with compulsory ones? Even when the Elites get 'excused' bent arms? (then again maybe they did loose .10 for bent arm kips?)
I'm just trying to figure out what is acceptable. Maybe a slight bend at the top of the kip is acceptable and should be ok for USAG standards?

==
What is acceptable is if the judge can see it or not. If you have to go back and freeze frame parts of the cast to see it then it doesn't exist.

 

[munchkin3]

got it.....so you SAY to the kids, straight arm, and hope for the perfect straight arm.
I remember years ago our coach telling a bunch of our girls, the day before the state meet, that they ALL needed to come in 1st. They scratched their heads and exclaimed, 'there is only one FIRST place!' . Coach said, 'thats not my problem' and walked back into the gym.....Their faces were priceless.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

got it.....so you SAY to the kids, straight arm, and hope for the perfect straight arm.
I remember years ago our coach telling a bunch of our girls, the day before the state meet, that they ALL needed to come in 1st. They scratched their heads and exclaimed, 'there is only one FIRST place!' . Coach said, 'thats not my problem' and walked back into the gym.....Their faces were priceless.

==
Yes and you will get a few that actually do have straight arms the rest as good as they can. But if you allow bent arms you are going to have a few with slight bent arms and the rest as bent as they can.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

==
What is acceptable is if the judge can see it or not. If you have to go back and freeze frame parts of the cast to see it then it doesn't exist.

An arm bend that you have to freeze-frame the video to see is not the same as "no arm bend." And in most of the videos I posted, you don't even need to pause the videos to see it.

I think we as coaches (and judges) should be realistic, and accept a slight arm bend is part of the correct execution of the skill. (I would say the same thing about front hip circles and backhandsprings)

I know many coaches give corrections which are not technically correct but which nonetheless work because they "trick" the kids into doing the skill correctly. It often works, but on general principle I still don't like to do it.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

An arm bend that you have to freeze-frame the video to see is not the same as "no arm bend." And in most of the videos I posted, you don't even need to pause the videos to see it.

I think we as coaches (and judges) should be realistic, and accept a slight arm bend is part of the correct execution of the skill. (I would say the same thing about front hip circles and backhandsprings)

I know many coaches give corrections which are not technically correct but which nonetheless work because they "trick" the kids into doing the skill correctly. It often works, but on general principle I still don't like to do it.

Ummm if the judge cannot see an arm bend then it is straight arms. And hannah and emily had locked elbows throughout. so it is possible. Also an elbow bend is allowed during the regrip phase of a front hip. Feel free to post some examples of your kids here and we will tell you if we think they should get deductions or not. That seems totally fair....

 

[sevenatenine2]

I think in a sport that distinguishes the best kids from the worst kids, you take deductions when things are not perfect not so much to punish the kids that can't do it, but more so to reward the ones that can. If there are two routines and one kid has perfectly straight arms throughout (which is hard to do at any level!) and the other is exactly the same except for bent arms, they shouldn't tie. The kid with straight arms should win.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

okay, all. i'm not going to argue. every single one of those videos shows every single one of those athletes with straight arms. as i alluded to above, the hypermobile elbow gives the 'illusion' of a bent arm but the elbows are NOT actually bent.

what you are seeing is the elbow joint go from a suppunated to pronated position. the elbow rotates in and then out as the load is placed on the bar. the elbow joint is NOT bending.

and Munchkin3, yes, i'm comparing kips whether they are compulsory or elite. doesn't matter what level. they should have straight elbows. this is why i have explained to coaches here to not tell the kids to "lean their shoulders" forward when attempting the kip cast to handstand. rather, tell them to place their elbows over the top of the bar when completing the kip. the first instruction will cause the elbow to bend. the second, not.

as i alluded in the above post, the kids have to be taught to pronate their elbows when casting. it's not a natural occurrence. and those with hypermobile elbows have a harder go of it because of the way their elbow joint rotates compared to an athlete who is hypomobile.

then, of course, those that are hypomobile give the illusion that their elbows are bent. and they are not. usually, and i mean usually, the judges know the difference. but many do not. same goes with knees. they might look bent but they are not.

moreover, the best bar workers in the world would NOT be able to do any of the difficulty required of them if their arms were bent. bending arms on bars means loss of pressure against the rail. and loss of pressure against the rail, which can throw the body out of alignment, means epic failure or falling off. that's all.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Ummm if the judge cannot see an arm bend then it is straight arms. And hannah and emily had locked elbows throughout. so it is possible. Also an elbow bend is allowed during the regrip phase of a front hip. Feel free to post some examples of your kids here and we will tell you if we think they should get deductions or not. That seems totally fair....

but it IS possible to do a front hip circle with perfectly straight arms. is it necessary? probably not so much. only when you go on to Wyler's. yet the front hip circle teaches 2 things. that there are 2 grip changes required to get to support and that the 2nd grip change must occur at the 3/4 circle point where the gymnast begins that pressure against the rail.

the athletes must be constantly reminded that they must keep pressure against the rails at all times. you can't bend your arms when your above the rail, and you can't bend your arms when your working under the rail (pulling).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thanks GT,
My DD's kips look just like Simones....YAY!! LOL I knew my DD had Olympic potential!!!
(not)
c'mon dunno, are you really trying to compare Elite kips with compulsory ones? Even when the Elites get 'excused' bent arms? (then again maybe they did loose .10 for bent arm kips?)
I'm just trying to figure out what is acceptable. Maybe a slight bend at the top of the kip is acceptable and should be ok for USAG standards?

the elites are NEVER excused for bent arms. they receive deductions for this whenever it occurs.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

but it IS possible to do a front hip circle with perfectly straight arms. is it necessary? probably not so much. only when you go on to Wyler's. yet the front hip circle teaches 2 things. that there are 2 grip changes required to get to support and that the 2nd grip change must occur at the 3/4 circle point where the gymnast begins that pressure against the rail.

the athletes must be constantly reminded that they must keep pressure against the rails at all times. you can't bend your arms when your above the rail, and you can't bend your arms when your working under the rail (pulling).

=
agreed, totally possible I have had a couple over the years, but like you said, not really worth the hard work.

 

[Bess]

but it IS possible to do a front hip circle with perfectly straight arms. is it necessary? probably not so much. only when you go on to Wyler's. yet the front hip circle teaches 2 things. that there are 2 grip changes required to get to support and that the 2nd grip change must occur at the 3/4 circle point where the gymnast begins that pressure against the rail.

the athletes must be constantly reminded that they must keep pressure against the rails at all times. you can't bend your arms when your above the rail, and you can't bend your arms when your working under the rail (pulling).

Wait! There can be an slight arm bend in the front hip circle?!?! If so, Best news I've heard all day lol. Little bit is having a devil of the time with arms being straight coming back around the bar up to support and then casting (L3) I don't know the technical terminology obviously

 

[Moxiegrl83]

Wait! There can be an slight arm bend in the front hip circle?!?! If so, Best news I've heard all day lol. Little bit is having a devil of the time with arms being straight coming back around the bar up to support and then casting (L3) I don't know the technical terminology obviously

Yes they are allowed a slight arm bend in L3.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

These are not pronated/hyperextended elbows. These are bent elbows.

I can post screengrabs from the rest of the videos when I get home, if you like.

 

[gymgal]

I personally would love to see the screen shots from Biles. I definitely saw it in He Kexin video (even before the screen shot, it was pretty obvious in the video), but in the Biles video, I am only seeing hyper extension at 14sec. There seems to be a slight bend 28 but I attributed that more from muscling up from the toe catch, than a persistent habit of a regular kip cast. Again, though, as Coachp and dunno noted it really makes no difference in judging as it is so slight, but in terms of dynamics, that's different.

 

[Gymsanity]

Think I will have to go with Geoffrey on this one....sort of.
I think there is some confusion here with semantics. With higher level kids, doing bigger skills I like to call it 'flexing' instead of 'bending' their arms. Not going to rummage around YouTube, but I think we have all seen world class athletes that flex their arms on bars. Some has to do with technique, some has to do with anthropometric differences, and some is just bad gymnastics! I would prefer all my girls to work with 'straight' arms, but not all can, and if they do, it hinders what they are actually trying to accomplish. At higher levels, I've not had many judges tell me they took off for flexed arms (compulsories, yes).

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Sorry but this cast looks straight to me..... particularly through the "impossible to keep you arms straight" compression...... Nat's arms only go straight an do not hyperextend at all... I see a muscular child swinging with straight arms and if you look at her giants (pic number 1) picture, you will that her arms when straight, have the exact same appearance from this angle

,,,, oh and she just won bars at western nationals....

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Yup, that's straight. I'll concede that one.

But I still say that's the exception, not the rule. I think I've shown pretty thoroughly that many of the world's best bar workers bend their arms. And thus, I stand by my initial point, which was that a slight arm bend is acceptable and should not be deducted.