WAG Another uptraining question

[Sasha]

Hi coaches/parents,

Well, my L3 gymmie had a high-scoring, high-placing season, and she loved every moment of competing. First season under her belt and she owned the high podium. And I loved watching her (except beam, that is heart-pounding to watch - lol). She is 8. Super proud parent, as all of you understand well!

Before competing L3, I posted some questions and some frustrations, as she was sort-of training for L4 back then, but only part-time, and wasn't ultimately invited to compete L4 despite having acquired the skills (but didn't polish them all, since she was only training L4 half time for a few months). She (and I) was disappointed, but she went on to rock L3. No uptraining for 6 months of pre and during season. OK. Moving on...

Now season is over, and supposedly everyone is uptraining now. She is in a training group with her L3 team-mates (training L4), a couple of whom have now come closer to catching up in skills to her, but more of them don't have any/many L4 skills. And there are now some new L3s in her group that didn't do so awesome at L3 (can you say headspring?), but will train L4 anyway. There are about 12 girls total targeting L4.

So the last few weeks, they've been training L4 skills, and, though of course skills always can use some polishing, she is essentially doing a zillion pretty-darn-good-already repetitions of skills she already has, while the rest of the group is actually 'uptraining' and working on what is, for them, 'new'. My DD is learning zero new skills. The one possible exception is vault, as she never got to polish that (since she only trained L4 half time, and then was cut off from training L4 skills last May/June for season), and now it's been 7 months since she's even gone over the table. So that's not going to be pretty, and so those progressions are very appropriate. She is the only one in her group that ever got over the table at all back last Jan-April, btw. It was bendy-armed, but honestly half the girls who competed L4 weren't any better at that point in time.

So I don't watch much anymore, but when I am there, I look over at the girls who just finished L4, some who rocked, and some who were upper-mid-pack, and see them training flyaways, clear-hips, bwo's on beam, tucks, etc, and my gut just tells me that's the group she should be in. That's the group she was in half-time last uptraining season, but those girls had all competed L3, and she hadn't, and I'm sure that played into the coaches' decision to compete her L3 (along with the fact that they 'needed' her scores for the team in L3, whereas the L4 team was already huge and top-heavy with repeaters. No more room.). She has the ability to be working on those skills, and so in my gut I feel she is not optimally training for her. Every day someone in L3 'gets' something new (there are shades of 'new', as in 'gets in on tumble-trak' first), and she just keeps repeating what she has. I realize gymnastics IS repetition, but also, I feel time is being wasted in compulsories not training anything new with a kid who is able and willing.

My question, therefore, is: Is it reasonable to think that in "Uptraining" season, my daughter should actually be trained to do some additional skills? Or do I honestly have unrealistic expectations here? I'm not naive any longer. I can see when a girl has poor form, or is timid, or inconsistent, etc. I know the difference between chucking and actually having the right technique, consistently. I know what scores well. I am not overestimating what my daughter can do. I did that for a long time, thinking maybe it was mommy goggles, but I am highly confident at this point that she could easily be training higher than where she is.

Please no simple "sit back and enjoy" sentiment. While I appreciate that, I will sit back and enjoy when I feel she's on the path that is right for her. She loves this too much for me not to do my homework and make sure I support her opportunities. Thanks for any replies, even ones that are critical. I need honesty here. Thanks for reading.

 

[sce]

Each gym is different. Your dd is uptraining, in that she's training skills for the level she has not yet competed. Also, getting a skill and being ready to compete a skill are different. Your dd sounds like she will be more than ready for level 4. Some gyms would work skills up more than one level, but others perfect a level at a time.

Is your dd complaining? It sounds like you disagree with her doing level 3 and now you think she should be with the group training for level 5. If you are really concerned can you talk to her coach?

 

[z2akids]

So, what I read is that your DD was new to competition this past season. That she had trained L3 and L4 both prior to a decision to have her compete L3. That she did well at L3. That the girls who are training L5+ skills all competed L4 last season (and many had two season at L4). That your DD is currently training to compete L4 next season. That you are unhappy that she is not training with the L5 hopeful group.

Many gyms do not skip levels routinely. L4 is a pretty big level to skip. The difference in skills from L3 to L5 is huge. In vault for example, if your DD were to skip L4, she would be competing the FHS vault against girls who are in their second and third + seasons competing that vault.

The way our gym would handle your DD is to primarily train L4 skills. The girls in the group that expect to compete L4 next season would be divided frequently into those girls who already consistently have the L4 skills but need to polish for condition (those repeating and the couple of new girls who are advanced) and those who need to learn the L4 skills. That first group would spend some time uptraining L5 skills and perhaps one or two of them would wind up moving up before the season. Now, that move would be unlikely in our gym because we only score out of 5 and compete 6, so it would be the very exceptional gymnast who went from L3 to L6.

Are there girls in her L4 training group who competed L4 this past season? Are they training the L5 skills? If you are at the start of uptraining and it will last until April, I would give it some time. Perhaps they will begin adding some higher level skills and progressions to the L4 training, although it may be reasonable to believe that the gym anticipates her competing L4 next season.

 

[Sasha]

Each gym is different. Your dd is uptraining, in that she's training skills for the level she has not yet competed. Also, getting a skill and being ready to compete a skill are different. Your dd sounds like she will be more than ready for level 4. Some gyms would work skills up more than one level, but others perfect a level at a time.

Is your dd complaining? It sounds like you disagree with her doing level 3 and now you think she should be with the group training for level 5. If you are really concerned can you talk to her coach?

Thanks, Sce,

She doesn't complain outwardly, as that is not her personality. She is a sweet, compliant type child. For example, though she said she was happy and fine with doing L3 last year, she was also down and cried when she came back and had alone time and it sank in. She continually talks about wanting to learn new skills - not in a 'complaining' way, but just in an excited, 'longing' way. I think that's pretty normal for a gymmie, of course (to want to learn new things).

I was 'ok' with her competing L3, sure somewhat disappointed, but not really about what level she would compete, but what that meant for her training. This gym does nearly no uptraining from May-December - all routines. They score well in compulsories. Not the top top gyms in the state, but at least competitive in that league.

I am thinking about talking to the coaches about plans for uptraining perhaps, but it's so scary as no one 'wants to be THAT parent'. I'm not expecting her to compete L5 (though, honestly she probably could do ok). I'm just questioning whether it's the right strategy to ONLY train L4 skills for an entire other year. I was imagining she would use this time to learn new skills (L5 in this case), then polish her L4 skills & routines from May-September. Then after her L4 season, she would already have a foundation for L5, and be poised to either skip (as some kids have), or uptrain L6/7 while prepping to compete L5 in a similar fashion.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

as i have posted before, there is no such thing as up training. the person that coined this word should be tarred and feathered and have duct tape put over their mouth. that's all.

 

[2G1B]

I'm confused... does she have all of the level 4 skills - like a solid kip, solid ROBHSBHS, cartwheel on beam? And you want her now working on her tucks, BWO on beam, baby giants, etc?

I guess if it is december and she already has a SOLID kip, tap swings, horizontal casts with good form, ROBHSBHS and cartwheel on beam, and is only missing a strong vault, then I might ask the coaches if there is any chance that she can do a score out of level 4. But if she is struggling on any of those in addition to the vault, then it sounds like she is in the right place, training for level 4.

Or is it that even though she doesn't have those skills, she is only working the progressions to the skills rather than working on the actual skills? If that is the issue then I guess I'd give it a bit of time. I'd assume that the coaches will start having the girls who are showing good form start working on the actual skills.

What's done is done with level 3 and level 4 has to be competed. I guess I'd say that if she actually has all of her level 4 skills solid and the current gym isn't open to seeing if she can score out and move on to 5 then it might be worth considering looking at another gym; but you have to be ready to hear that the other gyms wouldn't do a score out either.

 

[Sasha]

So, what I read is that your DD was new to competition this past season. That she had trained L3 and L4 both prior to a decision to have her compete L3. That she did well at L3. That the girls who are training L5+ skills all competed L4 last season (and many had two season at L4). That your DD is currently training to compete L4 next season. That you are unhappy that she is not training with the L5 hopeful group.

Many gyms do not skip levels routinely. L4 is a pretty big level to skip. The difference in skills from L3 to L5 is huge. In vault for example, if your DD were to skip L4, she would be competing the FHS vault against girls who are in their second and third + seasons competing that vault.

The way our gym would handle your DD is to primarily train L4 skills. The girls in the group that expect to compete L4 next season would be divided frequently into those girls who already consistently have the L4 skills but need to polish for condition (those repeating and the couple of new girls who are advanced) and those who need to learn the L4 skills. That first group would spend some time uptraining L5 skills and perhaps one or two of them would wind up moving up before the season. Now, that move would be unlikely in our gym because we only score out of 5 and compete 6, so it would be the very exceptional gymnast who went from L3 to L6.

Are there girls in her L4 training group who competed L4 this past season? Are they training the L5 skills? If you are at the start of uptraining and it will last until April, I would give it some time. Perhaps they will begin adding some higher level skills and progressions to the L4 training, although it may be reasonable to believe that the gym anticipates her competing L4 next season.

Thanks, z2akids,

Right, I wouldn't expect my DD to skip L4, though honestly she could probably do it (but I would not expect that at all). More likely, I would expect the scenario you described - to have girls who finished L3 but HAVE the L4 skills already (quite well, not just barely) to be practicing L5 skills along with polishing L4 during this time. That way, after an L4 season, she would be well poised to either do or skip L5 depending on her progress and the gym's plan. As is, I'm not sure if there will be any progress in the group she's training in....

The problem is most of the girls in my DD's training-L4 group aren't even close to having most L4 skills well. None of them did L4 last year - only L3. A couple girls are coming well along, but there's no way they will split up this group in a way like you described - not enough coaches. I would be thrilled if they did that. One of my beefs with her training last year was that when she was in the L3 training group, she ended up standing around quite a bit, or just went to a conditioning station, while the lesser-skilled girls got more attention being spotted and pushed to learn the L3 skills. She would do her one skill in front of the coach (mill circle or whatever), get a 'good' then go do the other conditioning stations. The ones who couldn't do mill circles well or didn't have a BHS yet would get time with the coaches to learn those things. Over time my DD's form improved, of course (as expected with all girls), but didn't work on anything new. She started off the season with high scores, and improved her scores somewhat over the season. Although not flawless, when you start out high, there's less room to go up. Others started out scratching events or doing average, then improved greatly over the season to start to catch up and many scored high by the end of the season. I'm happy for them, but feel like my DD didn't learn or improve all that much since last May in comparison, as she didn't have the opportunity to be pushed like they did. She was already ahead, and so just stayed more where she was.

Now it feels like this scenario is playing out again. Here we are again, she's the most advanced one in the group overall, again (new lesser skilled/poorer form kids have been added even), and she will do her kip, or FHS, gets a 'good' while the new ones get more attempts and are spotted while she does stations or stands in line. I can't help but ask myself 'why is no one teaching my DD anything new'? She is already ahead, and yes, polish is important, but is now the time for just polishing? The kids who are behind are being pushed - why isn't she? I realize stations for shaping and conditioning are all good things. But is that all she should be doing? I'm just questioning all this and trying to voice what my internal dialog is debating.. might not be articulating it all so well...

Ideally, I would like her to train L5 skills through April (along with practicing L4) before they start routine-only season in May. I have heard our coaches talk the good talk about 'uptraining', so if asked, they will say, 'Yes, now is the time for uptraining, we'll definitely uptrain." But so far there is very little uptraining. Maybe there will be, maybe I will talk to the coaches, but I'm trying to figure out what is realistic (thanks all) before potentially looking really stupid.

 

[Sasha]

I'm confused... does she have all of the level 4 skills - like a solid kip, solid ROBHSBHS, cartwheel on beam? And you want her now working on her tucks, BWO on beam, baby giants, etc?

I guess if it is december and she already has a SOLID kip, tap swings, horizontal casts with good form, ROBHSBHS and cartwheel on beam, and is only missing a strong vault, then I might ask the coaches if there is any chance that she can do a score out of level 4. But if she is struggling on any of those in addition to the vault, then it sounds like she is in the right place, training for level 4.

Or is it that even though she doesn't have those skills, she is only working the progressions to the skills rather than working on the actual skills? If that is the issue then I guess I'd give it a bit of time. I'd assume that the coaches will start having the girls who are showing good form start working on the actual skills.

What's done is done with level 3 and level 4 has to be competed. I guess I'd say that if she actually has all of her level 4 skills solid and the current gym isn't open to seeing if she can score out and move on to 5 then it might be worth considering looking at another gym; but you have to be ready to hear that the other gyms wouldn't do a score out either.

Thanks, 2G1B,
Yes, she has solid, straight arm kips (competed them in L3), solid RO2BHS, can cartwheel on high beam all day (though it was better last season when she half-trained L4. she hasn't gotten the chance to practice one since April until now, and now is just getting back to them. She can do 10 in a row+ without falling). She can cast to 45+ above horizontal, tight and not archy. She can hold a handstand on beam (both side and English) consistently.

I wouldn't expect her to skip 4, as that is pretty unusual; I just want her training above what she can do - so she is 'pushed', not just polished for a whole year while she waits for the rest of her training group to catch up.

I *hope* they start doing more L5 uptraining with her, but in the group she's in, not many are ready, and uptraining completely stops in April. My gut is just feeling like she is 'stuck' because of the group she's in, having barely missed being in the next group up (now training L5) where she did seem to really fit last year (in that 1/2 L3 1/2 L4 short training season last Jan-Apr). She kept up with those girls NO problem when she was with them. Now they are getting more and more ahead, while she is not allowed to do anything more. Getting frustrated, so trying to gather data from all you kind souls for reference of what I should expect, what I should ask, etc...

 

[2G1B]

Honestly then, I'd consider looking at other gyms. Our old gym took 3 of older dd's teammates who had those skills by January and had them do a single level 4 meet and then they moved on.

 

[Sasha]

as i have posted before, there is no such thing as up training. the person that coined this word should be tarred and feathered and have duct tape put over their mouth. that's all.

Thanks for chiming in dunno and reading my scenario,

I'd love to absorb your wisdom, but not really sure what you mean? I guess I interpret 'up' training to mean beginning to practice skills you haven't worked on yet, often a level (or 2) above the level you are aiming to compete. Working on these in advance of your level prepares you for better readiness after your comp season, and keeps a gymnasts training at the highest level that is safe for her.

Do I have that wrong? Would love your expert take.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the kids are supposed to be practicing and training gymnastics at every work out. conditioning, flexibility, power training, sequential progressions, etc; it's all part of a comprehensive training program.

all this "up training" stuff that i keep reading down at beginner level gymnastics like level 1,2,3,4,5 all must be smoke and mirrors from these clubs.

i get kids try out at my gym that have these kinds of programs. they can't climb a rope. they can't press to a handstand...even against a wall, they can't keep their arms straight on a front and back hip circle, etc; i could go on ad nauseum. and many of them have been competing.

they should always should be practicing within their physical capabilities. but something like working on kips when they can't do a proper glide with tap shoots the athlete right in the foot.

they should always be doing basics. things like floor complex, beam complex, floor cardio and bars cardio. always climbing the rope. always conditioning and changing cycles every 6 to 9 weeks. to much to keep going on.

everyone is focusing on the wrong thing. and that is what level they're at. everyone should be focusing on their child's basics...like a perfect handstand.

for you see, training up anything a couple of levels from where they are is futile when you don't have a plan and that plan doesn't include the things i have already mentioned.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the operative word (s) is sequential training...not up training.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Hi coaches/parents,

Well, my L3 gymmie had a high-scoring, high-placing season, and she loved every moment of competing. First season under her belt and she owned the high podium. And I loved watching her (except beam, that is heart-pounding to watch - lol). She is 8. Super proud parent, as all of you understand well!

Before competing L3, I posted some questions and some frustrations, as she was sort-of training for L4 back then, but only part-time, and wasn't ultimately invited to compete L4 despite having acquired the skills (but didn't polish them all, since she was only training L4 half time for a few months). She (and I) was disappointed, but she went on to rock L3. No uptraining for 6 months of pre and during season. OK. Moving on...

Now season is over, and supposedly everyone is uptraining now. She is in a training group with her L3 team-mates (training L4), a couple of whom have now come closer to catching up in skills to her, but more of them don't have any/many L4 skills. And there are now some new L3s in her group that didn't do so awesome at L3 (can you say headspring?), but will train L4 anyway. There are about 12 girls total targeting L4.

So the last few weeks, they've been training L4 skills, and, though of course skills always can use some polishing, she is essentially doing a zillion pretty-darn-good-already repetitions of skills she already has, while the rest of the group is actually 'uptraining' and working on what is, for them, 'new'. My DD is learning zero new skills. The one possible exception is vault, as she never got to polish that (since she only trained L4 half time, and then was cut off from training L4 skills last May/June for season), and now it's been 7 months since she's even gone over the table. So that's not going to be pretty, and so those progressions are very appropriate. She is the only one in her group that ever got over the table at all back last Jan-April, btw. It was bendy-armed, but honestly half the girls who competed L4 weren't any better at that point in time.

So I don't watch much anymore, but when I am there, I look over at the girls who just finished L4, some who rocked, and some who were upper-mid-pack, and see them training flyaways, clear-hips, bwo's on beam, tucks, etc, and my gut just tells me that's the group she should be in. That's the group she was in half-time last uptraining season, but those girls had all competed L3, and she hadn't, and I'm sure that played into the coaches' decision to compete her L3 (along with the fact that they 'needed' her scores for the team in L3, whereas the L4 team was already huge and top-heavy with repeaters. No more room.). She has the ability to be working on those skills, and so in my gut I feel she is not optimally training for her. Every day someone in L3 'gets' something new (there are shades of 'new', as in 'gets in on tumble-trak' first), and she just keeps repeating what she has. I realize gymnastics IS repetition, but also, I feel time is being wasted in compulsories not training anything new with a kid who is able and willing.

My question, therefore, is: Is it reasonable to think that in "Uptraining" season, my daughter should actually be trained to do some additional skills? Or do I honestly have unrealistic expectations here? I'm not naive any longer. I can see when a girl has poor form, or is timid, or inconsistent, etc. I know the difference between chucking and actually having the right technique, consistently. I know what scores well. I am not overestimating what my daughter can do. I did that for a long time, thinking maybe it was mommy goggles, but I am highly confident at this point that she could easily be training higher than where she is.

Please no simple "sit back and enjoy" sentiment. While I appreciate that, I will sit back and enjoy when I feel she's on the path that is right for her. She loves this too much for me not to do my homework and make sure I support her opportunities. Thanks for any replies, even ones that are critical. I need honesty here. Thanks for reading.

Okay...okay.... Do not tell this poster to relax, even though that is precisely what they need to do. Humm..... How about don't sit back and relax, instead get up and remove yourself from the gym. I mean that in the nicest way. .

 

[Sasha]

the operative word (s) is sequential training...not up training.

Thanks, dunno. I do agree those basics are key. There is indeed tons of conditioning and 'basics' done at our gym, which pleases me. She can climb rope in a pike and hold a nice handstand for an average of 10 seconds. She can do a press handstand up and down to straddle hold, straight legs. This is thanks to the basics, which are overall very good at our gym. I would not wish to be at a gym where kids are throwing ugly back tucks just to call it uptraining.

So, I guess in your language, I've been questioning whether my DD is on the right 'sequential' pace for her abilities. I am unsure of the 'plan' for her. Beyond the basics, at some point she will need to do progressions for higher level skills to attain them. I have had growing questions, that are becoming concerns, that the pace of her group isn't optimal for her. I know parents always think their kids are ready for things they're not, which is why I am careful and want to be educated on what is optimal and what is not. I consider myself pretty objective and can clearly point out things she is NOT good at. I have other children, one a gymnast who is in exactly the right training group and is being optimally progressed in my opinion. I don't have this same confidence with this gymmie. Thanks for all the insights. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts.

 

[Sasha]

Okay...okay.... Do not tell this poster to relax, even though that is precisely what they need to do. Humm..... How about don't sit back and relax, instead get up and remove yourself from the gym. I mean that in the nicest way. .

Hi coachp,

I know 'leaving the gym and not watching' is the magic pill to make all gymnastics programs and coaches perfect, I know, as what we naive and rose-goggled parents don't see, we can't question or judge. Really, I don't watch very much anymore. I think my question about expectations for 'uptraining' is legitimate, though. My intention was to get perspectives/examples of whether to expect a gymnast who is looking to compete L4 next fall to be learning progression for any skills beyond L4, given a gymnast who already has pretty strong L4 skills and the type of season/schedule our gym sticks to. My goal here is to assess one factor of gym fit (out of many factors) for my daughter who could be a candidate for high level gymnastics in the future given the right conditions. Therefore, I am assessing the conditions.

I gather by your comment to relax, that at your gym, a gymnast equivalent to my DD would not be learning any progressions toward L5 skills until completion of the L4 season, and therefore, my DD's current path is not something to be concerned about?

Cheers and thanks for reading!

 

[Sasha]

Reading back, wanted to note that last question to you, @coachp wasn't sarcastic - that was an actual question to clarify your comment. Thanks!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Sasha, does your gym have 9's and 10's?

 

[gymdog]

Well, it sounds like your daughter has some solid level 4 skills. However, there are often problems with progressing a child too fast and you may go to another gym to find out going slower would have been best in the end and led to the same outcome with less stress. She may be able to do 5 now, but then if she does two seasons in 7 struggling with some fear, she will be in the same place as if she does 4,5,7. It is very common for these things to even out and that is what a good coach is thinking about with an 8 year old. It's okay for them to be wanting more. It's okay to get very comfortable, even too comfortable, with basics and continue to refine the technique. That is better than struggling and while the parents often think they will have more fun in the higher level, when the child struggles, falls, hurts that's rarely true. They typically enjoy being in a comfortable spot more. I have a gymnast currently in 3 who can do everything you describe but due to age I have other reasons for having her at 3 this year. I am sure if I pushed her and ignored form and details she could compete many levels up but it really doesn't make sense to sacrifice so much (technique, success) for no reason.

 

[Sasha]

Sasha, does your gym have 9's and 10's?

No homegrown ones as it is a newer gym. We've only had one teenage level 10 transplant, and three teenage level 9 transplants, all who recently graduated. The few home-grown level 8's that competed last year did OK but not amazing. They are youngish (age 10-13?) kids who were fast-tracked from compulsories perhaps in part because, at the time the gym started, there weren't many kids in the program (can count on one hand) so they could move as fast as they wanted. They are still young, and at least a couple of them do seem like they could have great potential, so we could have level 10s in another year or 2.

I like many things about this gym, so I'm being very careful in thinking all this through. The thing is, right before my daughter started, there was a pretty huge group of kids who came up through the developmental program, all starting at L3 together. My daughter came along just after that boom, and just missed the boat, realistically in part because that group is full, full, full. She was instead placed in a smaller training group, which, at the time, was an OK fit. However, in all honesty, she moved ahead more quickly than that group (some of them left for Xcel), in all ways: skills, form and basics. But because this group was the smallest, they kept adding all the new even-less-skilled kids into it when they joined from rec or other gyms. So the training that once fit her OK became focused on all these lesser-skilled (in form and skills) kids to try to bring them up to par. While my DD continues to get strong from the basics, I have increasingly felt that her progressions have been much more limited in opportunity since more and more lower-level kids have been steadily added. I don't know if I should be concerned. I just feel this way, and so I'm looking for more data. Thank you again! Sorry for all the books. It's so hard to know what detail to share.

 

[MILgymFAM]

If it were me I would feel as you do. It is definitely at least partly an individual gym thing though. When DD was grabbing time with a JO team for fun, the L4s were all doing BHS on beam and giants while uptraining. Their L4s had all the L5 skills solid already, and had since L3. That said, I get the frustration. My DD has her kips, baby giants, clear hips, but her coach refuses to start flyaways. I can't figure it out, and neither can DD, so we just had to stop banging heads against the wall about it. I hope they are willing to listen to your point of view and consider changing her group.