WAG What intangibles could hold a child back?

[wgymmom]

Is there some anxiety that your daughter is stronger than her other Level 5 teammates, but she might be held back because they don't want to have just one or two at Level 7?

You nailed it. I feel like that is what happened this year too. The gym was saying L6 in 2015, and at the last minute said no, L5/6 are so similar (their words) that they just wanted to keep all the girls together and do a full season of L5. Two weeks before the first meet, when scoring out had been the plan since Feb.

 

[Seeker]

Wow.

What GYMOM said, minimum requirements for 6 aren't that much more than L5. That is where my problem lies.

I get that she wasn't knocking it out of the park, but compared to her teammates, she was. But hey, I was also told that scores, placements, and skill level don't count for compulsories. So which is it?

It depends on how your gym uses level 6. Do they to basic minimum routines or do they use it as a bridge to 7? Just because the minimum requirements are basically the same as Level 5 doesn't mean that she will be competing minimum skills. That's how all the optional levels are...you'll see kids with bare minimum routines and then others with maxed out skills. It could be a great building year for her.

 

[wgymmom]

It depends on how your gym uses level 6. Do they to basic minimum routines or do they use it as a bridge to 7? Just because the minimum requirements are basically the same as Level 5 doesn't mean that she will be competing minimum skills. That's how all the optional levels are...you'll see kids with bare minimum routines and then others with maxed out skills. It could be a great building year for her.

That's just my problem. The gym has never had anyone at new 6. I have no idea whatsoever how they are using it. I asked! No answer. That's what I want to know, why I wanted to know what skills they were working on. I can handle 6 better if it's like 7 (but I will still wonder, why 6 in that case and not 7). If they do minimum requirements, I won't be so happy. They have a calendar year plus a few weeks to train.

 

[z2akids]

If the gym do
t want to make ANY promises, that's fine. But the gym IS making promises to other groups. That are not phenoms. That have less time to train. That have a larger leap in skills. Why?

First of all, I do not know if you realize that bolding your entire post on a forum like this is generally interpreted as shouting. If that is your intent, I am at the stage where I wonder whether you also come across to the coaches as a CGM. But, perhaps you were concerned that I would be unable to read your post if it were not bolded. in which case, yup my eyes are getting old, so thank you. I will go with that interpretation.

First of all, what another group is called and what they are training is irrelevant to anyone except those gymnasts. Whether your coaches are or are not making promises to other girls is frankly none of your business. You say you do not watch your DD's practices. I do not know why you would be watching another group, especially since it seems to frustrate you. Perhaps they are phenoms. Heck, perhaps their parents are totally loaded and are paying the gym tons of money to advance them quickly. Who knows and who cares. It will not affect your DD one bit. In fact, if they are pushed forward too quickly, your DD will likely out perform them if they catch up levels.

As far as your DD, the coaches have not ruled out any level at this point. You said so yourself. They are working giants. They do work more advanced skills individually with gymnasts who are ready. They are training her optional skills. As for your original question of what could be holding her back - at this point, she isn't being held back.

If you don't trust them to have her best interest at heart, then leave. Otherwise, stop worrying about what they are doing with other girls.

 

[tuckfull]

How big is your gym's Level 7 group? Have you watched their routines? Just curious.

My DD's gym is one that competes an entire season at new Level 6. A few girls compete the minimum skills at first, so not much more difficult than Level 5. Usually by States they are doing a BWOBWO series and BHS on beam, FHS-FT and ROBHSBLO on floor, etc. Its been a learning curve, but Level 6/7 feels very different from compulsories where you HAD to have xyz skill to compete that level. We have some girls who aren't phenoms doing Level 6 right now, and also one or two who likely could fast track through Level 7 to 8. We also have a shaky coaching situation right now with little communication, so I feel your pain there!

From what you have shared before, I think some of your frustration is coming from the fact that you wish your DD had started with team earlier (or moved gyms earlier? I forget which...) and now she is playing catch up. And you/she have been promised things by previous coaches which they went back on for reasons that had nothing to do with your DD, but for her team as a whole. That IS frustrating.

Since you don't have any other gym options, all you can do is have faith in your DD that she'll continue to rise to every challenge they give her skill-wise and she'll be ready to compete 7 next year.

 

[wgymmom]

First of all, I do not know if you realize that bolding your entire post on a forum like this is generally interpreted as shouting. If that is your intent, I am at the stage where I wonder whether you also come across to the coaches as a CGM. But, perhaps you were concerned that I would be unable to read your post if it were not bolded. in which case, yup my eyes are getting old, so thank you. I will go with that interpretation.

First of all, what another group is called and what they are training is irrelevant to anyone except those gymnasts. Whether your coaches are or are not making promises to other girls is frankly none of your business. You say you do not watch your DD's practices. I do not know why you would be watching another group, especially since it seems to frustrate you. Perhaps they are phenoms. Heck, perhaps their parents are totally loaded and are paying the gym tons of money to advance them quickly. Who knows and who cares. It will not affect your DD one bit. In fact, if they are pushed forward too quickly, your DD will likely out perform them if they catch up levels.

As far as your DD, the coaches have not ruled out any level at this point. You said so yourself. They are working giants. They do work more advanced skills individually with gymnasts who are ready. They are training her optional skills. As for your original question of what could be holding her back - at this point, she isn't being held back.

If you don't trust them to have her best interest at heart, then leave. Otherwise, stop worrying about what they are doing with other girls.

No, I did not realize that. I was just emphasizing it.

I am not asking around about other kids, nor am I watching other groups. This info has been completely volunteered to me. I also had pretty much no choice to notice what they did with the 3's who skipped 4 and moved directly into 5 this year, as they were in the training group with my daughter.

If they were phenoms, then why are their scores not higher? No, I'm not stalking them, but we had several meets where all the compulsories competed together.


___________________________________________________________________
Gem1010:

How big is your gym's Level 7 group? Have you watched their routines? Just curious.

My DD's gym is one that competes an entire season at new Level 6. A few girls compete the minimum skills at first, so not much more difficult than Level 5. Usually by States they are doing a BWOBWO series and BHS on beam, FHS-FT and ROBHSBLO on floor, etc. Its been a learning curve, but Level 6/7 feels very different from compulsories where you HAD to have xyz skill to compete that level. We have some girls who aren't phenoms doing Level 6 right now, and also one or two who likely could fast track through Level 7 to 8. We also have a shaky coaching situation right now with little communication, so I feel your pain there!

From what you have shared before, I think some of your frustration is coming from the fact that you wish your DD had started with team earlier (or moved gyms earlier? I forget which...) and now she is playing catch up. And you/she have been promised things by previous coaches which they went back on for reasons that had nothing to do with your DD, but for her team as a whole. That IS frustrating.

Since you don't have any other gym options, all you can do is have faith in your DD that she'll continue to rise to every challenge they give her skill-wise and she'll be ready to compete 7 next year.

___________________________________________________________________

We have no L7's, no (other?) L6's. One girl scored out of old 6 and did a couple of meets at 7 last year, and then moved to 8, which she will still have to score out of this upcoming season. So we have 8-10 and 3-5, plus my DD's group, which is stuck in the middle.

The italicized is also dead on. Thank you to those who remember me.

 

[gymgal]

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

You really only have two options - stay with the club, knowing that you will always have poor communication with the coaches and that your dd may not progress as quickly as she is capable/you want her to OR leave the club. You have said that there are no other clubs around that would work for you, so that essentially means quitting gymnastics, unless you are willing to move. If your dd was given these two options, what would she choose? If it's the first (and it likely is, if she truly loves the sport) then you need to make peace with the fact that it may not be the best situation but it is good enough so that she can continue to enjoy the sport, even if she never makes it to the top levels. If it is the second, then help her move on to another sport.

It really won't matter in the long run whether she compete 6 or 7. If she competes 6, it just means she will have a stronger L7 year, which will prep her for an easier transition to 8. It tends to all work out in the end. Your dd has plenty more years to make it into upper optionals. Whether the coaches see that potential is another question but it is too early to rule that out for her. Let her enjoy the process and don't let her get hung up on the end results (the levels)

As for giants in straps - you can never have too much strap-bar work. My dd literally did thousands before she transitioned to pit bar. She only transitioned about 3 months before competition season started but when she did, they were near perfect.

 

[Seeker]

Based on my knowledge of L6, there are several difference that make L6 a better fit for some. It can most definitely represent growth from L5 and is in no way a waste of time for those competing it.

The event that the score can be really different on between L6 & L7 is bars. You could do exactly the same routine in both levels, but it would score lower in L7. The angle deductions for casts and free hips is different -- you must cast higher and get the free hip higher in L7 to avoid deduction. Also, giants are not "specifically" required in either level, but it is somewhat uncommon to not have them in L7. Many gyms use the Giants as the deciding factor for L7, much like the vaułt in L8.

Floor -- Back tumbling requires a layout for L7 while a tuck is acceptable for L6. Front Tumbling must have 2 connected skills (like front handspring-front tuck) whereas in L6 you can do a single salto in a front tumbling pass.

Beam -- L7 requires a connected acro series whereas L6 requires a single acro skill. Common series skills in L7 are connected BWO-BHS or BWO-BWO. L6 acro requirement can be met by a single skill.

Vaułt -- same

Here is a good guide of the different requirements in the optional levels. https://usagym.org/docs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx14_optreqchart_2013.pdf

 

[twinmomma]

No, I did not realize that. I was just emphasizing it.

I am not asking around about other kids, nor am I watching other groups. This info has been completely volunteered to me. I also had pretty much no choice to notice what they did with the 3's who skipped 4 and moved directly into 5 this year, as they were in the training group with my daughter.

If they were phenoms, then why are their scores not higher? No, I'm not stalking them, but we had several meets where all the compulsories competed together.

You're making the point however that you're repeatedly comparing your daughter to what is being done with other kids. Maybe their scores weren't higher because they skipped 4 and weren't as prepared as they should have been for 5. The reality is, who cares? Stop comparing what is happening with your dd to what's happening to other kids. Don't say you aren't when you are - clearly. The reality is, we can all talk in circles here but you don't seem to want to really listen to what anyone here says. Ask for a meeting with the coaches. Stop complaining they aren't approachable. You are the customer, demand customer service. If you aren't willing to do that, then sit back and watch and suck it up. Nobody here can tell you why they aren't saying your DD is going to be an L7. Nobody. And we certainly can't tell you "hey it could be this, hey it could be that" if you are going to insist that NONE of those explanations apply to your kid. Obviously, it's SOMETHING. Maybe, they feel a year at L6 will help her confidence going into L7, maybe she has a fear issue, maybe she's an attitude problem, or maybe, just maybe, they see something that you don't. THAT is what you pay them for. THAT is what their job is.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

That's just my problem. The gym has never had anyone at new 6. I have no idea whatsoever how they are using it. I asked! No answer. That's what I want to know, why I wanted to know what skills they were working on. I can handle 6 better if it's like 7 (but I will still wonder, why 6 in that case and not 7). If they do minimum requirements, I won't be so happy. They have a calendar year plus a few weeks to train.

L6 can be a great year for many girls because not only do they get their own routines that can highlight their own style but they can add skills as they are gained so in one season they can go from having basically L5 skill set to maxed out L7 skills. It really is a versatile level.

Plus, she has an entire year to train towards L7. You just never know what could happen in this sport and based on what skills you have said your DD currently has I imagine the gym did not want to promise something beyond what she is doing right now. SO many things can change and neither you (or the gym) know what might happen, fears, injuries, etc. Good luck to your DD!!

 

[wgymmom]

You're making the point however that you're repeatedly comparing your daughter to what is being done with other kids. Maybe their scores weren't higher because they skipped 4 and weren't as prepared as they should have been for 5. The reality is, who cares? Stop comparing what is happening with your dd to what's happening to other kids. Don't say you aren't when you are - clearly. The reality is, we can all talk in circles here but you don't seem to want to really listen to what anyone here says. Ask for a meeting with the coaches. Stop complaining they aren't approachable. You are the customer, demand customer service. If you aren't willing to do that, then sit back and watch and suck it up. Nobody here can tell you why they aren't saying your DD is going to be an L7. Nobody. And we certainly can't tell you "hey it could be this, hey it could be that" if you are going to insist that NONE of those explanations apply to your kid. Obviously, it's SOMETHING. Maybe, they feel a year at L6 will help her confidence going into L7, maybe she has a fear issue, maybe she's an attitude problem, or maybe, just maybe, they see something that you don't. THAT is what you pay them for. THAT is what their job is.

I didn't insist that none of those explanations fit. I pretty much took to heart that she will probably top out at 7 or 8. And the part about them seeing something that I don't? Why do you think I started this thread?

I am apparently not making myself clear in the least. I'm done with this thread.

 

[NewtoGym]

The sad truth is that gym is just not fair. There will be favorites, politics, nastiness and hurt feelings. If you don't like it you can leave. If there are no other gyms you can do what others have done and drive far distances. It's not always possible but you have choices. The bottom line is it is the owners gym and they can do what they want. As you can leave or stay. It is not your choice what level she will be, just like it is not your choice what level other girls will be. Focus only on your dd. Accept the gyms policy or leave.

 

[sevenatenine2]

I think I get you, I really do.

Your daughter did well at 5 and had been told she'd be training 7. Now nothing has changed on her end and the coaches have now kind of snatched the cheese out from under her and your suspicion is because some of the other kids couldn't make it to 7 and they coaches aren't motivated enough to do 7 with just one or two kids so they are now giving themselves an out by saying they'll probably all do 6. While others have said that they've left the option of 7 open, what you've heard and what you are afraid of is they've planted the seed now for you to expect to do 6 because that's what the majority of the team would need, and they really have no intention of letting your daughter do 7, especially since she's "older" so why make the effort just for her.

I think you're getting a lot of flack for being difficult, and I know you're frustrated but you HAVE come across as kind of testy, but I maintain that the gym is at fault for not answering your questions. You ARE a customer and you DO deserve the common courtesy of them telling you WHY they are doing what they do.

I understand the frustration of maybe wanting to leave but it's not realistic. Sadly, I think you either need to steer your daughter to another direction to avoid the crazymaking OR figure out a way you can just remove yourself and try not to get angry. You shouldn't have to do that, and in a perfect world you wouldn't, but in this situation if your daughter wants to do gym, it may be the only thing.

 

[sportsmommy]

I know the op said she was done with this thread but i thought i would add my opinion anyway. There was a situation several years ago at my dds gym where i felt very strongly that my dd was treated unfairly concerning a move up similar to what the ops dd is going through. I still have hard feelings sometimes because it wasnt the gymnastics part that bothered me it was the lack of faith the coach had in my dd. I could never see why my dd was being held at one level when other girls were not only moving up but skipping a level. All the girls scored roughly the same and they all had strengths and weaknesses. I will admit beam fear was my dds weakness and that a had a lot to do with it but to be told that basically your child cant hack it is so hurtful. It consumed my thoughts and the fact that i wanted to hear that the coach was wrong and that my dd did have potential almost made me a cgm. My dd has since moved to xcel and is quite successful.

Unless a parent is a coach or ex-gymnast we dont always understand what the reason behind a decision is and need an explanation, no matter how much you trust the coach. coaches do make mistakes too. No body is perfect. Being a parent of a gymnast is hard.

My point is that when we as parents look at these girls we dont see a gymnast, we see our daughters.

Sorry about the rant. This has just been on mind.

 

[SignHere]

when we as parents look at these girls we dont see a gymnast, we see our daughters.
QUOTE]

AMEN!!!!

I can see why OP got upset with the whole situation. She feels powerless.

It's obvious that she doesn't trust the coach to "do right" by her child. (And she has past experience to go on, unfortunately). However, she doesn't feel that she has a viable option of leaving.

Thus, she came to CB for someone to come up with a viable explanation (some sort of "reasonable" reason for the coaches not moving her child up - a pill that would be less bitter to swallow). Instead - she got a LOT (and I do mean a lot!) of slightly non-complimentary suggestions about her DD. I'd be pretty ticked off too. Then, she gets accused of being a CGM? Shame on us.

So - my suggestion to her is that there is probably more up-training (or sequential training, or whatever you want to call it) going on in optionals that she realizes, given that her DD competed a BHS on beam in level 5 and is training giants on the strap bar. Hopefully, she can be reassured that in optionals, unlike in compulsories, each girl can play up her strengths - our level 6s compete FWOs or BWOs on beam, our level 7s compete BWO-BWO or BWO-BHS. So, her daughter's experience in level 5 would suggest that her gym trains towards individual strengths as well. I saw level 6s compete almost a complete level 7 routine last year - the requirements are written so that girls can have routines virtually competition ready for the next level.

As for giants on the strap bar - not to worry - my DD competed giants last year, but it was back to the strap and pit bar to work on form for clear hip to hand stand and giants - she didn't get off the straps until a couple of weeks before the first meet this season (shrug). drill, drill, drill.

 

[twinmomma]

I don't think ANYONE was "noncomplimentary" about her DD. She was offered suggestions (which she ASKED for) as to why. Potentials included confidence, attitude, form, etc... What was everyone supposed to say? "Oh your DD is amazing and you're right she should be a 7 this year" when we know nothing about her and what her coaches thought processes are? Seems to me it's a matter of don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answers. But I take offense to the idea that people were rude.

Feeling powerless is one thing. However, as a parent, it's not her job to be in the position of "power" if there is one. It's the coach's decision. I've seen parents take the position of power and it doesn't end well, because like the other poster said, we see our children, not gymnasts.

 

[gymdog]

I don't think ANYONE was "noncomplimentary" about her DD. She was offered suggestions (which she ASKED for) as to why. Potentials included confidence, attitude, form, etc... What was everyone supposed to say? "Oh your DD is amazing and you're right she should be a 7 this year" when we know nothing about her and what her coaches thought processes are? Seems to me it's a matter of don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answers. But I take offense to the idea that people were rude.

Feeling powerless is one thing. However, as a parent, it's not her job to be in the position of "power" if there is one. It's the coach's decision. I've seen parents take the position of power and it doesn't end well, because like the other poster said, we see our children, not gymnasts.

I'm also little confused on how with bare bones information and no videos or really any specifics, we could have complimented or been non complimentary. For all most of us know, this child might not even exist. It's entirely hypothetical to me, it's not like I'm trying to push any sort of agenda against this kid. Maybe she is amazing, and it sounds like by moving her up to level 6 with the rest of the group the coaches feel she is progressing. The OP's agenda seems to be driven by a group of kids who skipped level 4, which seems to have entirely nothing to do with her daughter moving up to level 6. Also seems like based on the timeline her daughter didn't start compulsories under the "new" system so the coaches might have just changed how they do the lower levels now based on that. It's possible, but entirely unlikely that they have made any of these decisions out of malice for the OP's child. I've certainly seen insane decision making before, so I wouldn't deny it's a possibility, but it tends to be pretty rare because most coaches are motivated to have a good team, and not one that sucks or is low level forever. So typically when I've seen insanity it's been the result of literal insanity, I guess you would probably see some other red flags which the OP really hasn't mentioned anything like that.

So that's this thread in a nutshell, you can see from the gymnastics professional side why I wouldn't imagine that the coaches are just doing this to mess with OP, doesn't really make sense. They almost certainly have a rational reason, who knows why they aren't sharing it, maybe the email came at an inopportune time and they just forgot. Maybe try asking again or getting an evaluation elsewhere, or sending a video to someone on here.

 

[rosettasmom]

I think the new level system threw a wrench into a lot of gyms compulsory programs. They are now in the early Parr of figuring out what works best for each club. Some are scoring out of 5, competing 6 and some are competing 5, skipping 6. Then there are some who are competing 5, skipping 6 and immediately competing 7 in back to back seasons. There are a so many options now and figuring out what to do with this new 6 is going to take time.

 

[SignHere]

When I said "powerless" I meant in the sense of having choices. If I'm not happy with the service that is being offered, do I have another option available?

 

[twinmomma]

When I said "powerless" I meant in the sense of having choices. If I'm not happy with the service that is being offered, do I have another option available?

There's always options. Our gym has kids who travel a significant distance for a program we offer that isn't offered elsewhere in our area (Acro). Many of those kids are homeschooled to accommodate this. They are high level competitors, for sure, but do we think this was their FIRST choice in how to handle their kids' sport? I highly doubt it. They did what they had to do. I guess if it's important enough, you find a way.

I agree with gymdog makes some incredibly valid points - while coaches' decision may seem arbitrary or ill-intended, that's not likely the case. Communication seems to be the actual issue, and that's something the OP has control of. You can't make someone talk to you, for sure, but you can approach the situation calmly and professionally and request a meeting or write an email or grab the coach after practice, or something. There's always a way.