WAG Main purpose for xcel?

[skschlag]

And none of us are arguing that USAG is not making money. They have to. They carry insurance on athletes, coaches, judges. They have admin to pay. They have expenses.

What we are arguing is that hte main purpose of xcel is not to make money. The main purpose is for more kids to get to do gymnastics.

You stated that the main intent was revenue and profit. That is where we disagree.

The intent was revenue. Keep kids who parents would stop paying or couldn't afford to pay so much in the sport.

Its for profit. They didn't do it just to be nice.

 

[profmom]

Um, we do all understand that the USA Gymnastics is organized as a 501c3 not-for-profit enterprise, correct?

The main benefit of XCel in dollar terms is to clubs, not USAG. By having the principal non-profit organization that runs the national stream program set up XCel, they can establish a national set of standards and rules that private for-profit clubs can easily pick up and use to establish their own programs. USAG can incorporate programming on setting up a good XCel program into their member services, thereby encouraging clubs to maintain their USAG memberships and register their coaches as members. It's a symbiotic relationship between individual clubs and USAG. USAG put together a solid program that clubs could market to gymnasts and families who wanted to be involved in the sport without committing the hours and money necessary to be competitive in the JO stream. That niche existed prior to XCel and was being filled in a variety of ways ranging from state programs to YMCA programs, USAIG, and AAU, all of with which XCel is now a direct competitor.

It makes a lot of sense for an organization that views itself as a peak national organization to have a presence in the currently highly robust market for less time consuming and expensive but still competitive team gymnastics. Money's part of it to be sure, but it's also an important service to provide to clubs if USAG really wants to serve its club members.

 

[raenndrops]

That niche existed prior to XCel and was being filled in a variety of ways ranging from state programs to YMCA programs, USAIG, and AAU, all of with which XCel is now a direct competitor.

I agree with ALMOST everything you said.
I left this part of your post because this is where I take exception. YMCA programs are NOT a direct competitor of Xcel.

There are several areas in which YMCA teams, in addition to competing in their Y District, compete against private clubs in regular, Sanctioned USAG JO and Xcel meets, including State meets and Regionals.
That aside, there are at least 111 YMCA gymnastics programs that compete JO / Xcel. At least 50 of these teams offer Xcel in addition to JO (and at least one more is adding it as of this season based on what I have heard on ChalkBucket).
Also, at least 50 of these Y teams have girls competing JO L8 or higher (this is often where some Y's that might not otherwise compete at private club meets choose to allow their gymnasts the opportunity - so they can get more competition). There were 22 YMCAs that sent L9 and L10s to YMCA Nationals (51 girls were scheduled)... not counting those that didn't want to attend because it was in Wichita or were injured, busy, or just didn't want to go.

 

[z2akids]

There are several ways that state committees for USAG can address the issue of JO athletes competing Xcel. One way is by having a single competition season. In our state all USAG competitions run late fall into early spring with State meets for optionals, xcel and compulsories all taking place over a 4ish week time period.

This obviously eliminates the use of Xcel as extra competition practice for JO girls.

I wonder if the PP is so focused on the financial factors since her gymnast is competing multiple seasons each year. Double the meet fees, etc. But, honestly her gym is the one that benefits from competing both JO and Xcel. They can convince parents to train higher hours than they likely wouldndonof they were using Xcel as a less inrense route. More hours since they are never in an off season and have to spend more time preparing than they would otherwise. More coaches fees, etc. Potentially their gym could host more meets.

Meets can be a big financial boon for a gym. But, USAG isn't the big benefactor of all of those costs. Sure, gyms have to pay some sort of fee to be sanctioned. But, our biggest single cost is for equipment, then venue and then we pay individual judges, the company that makes our trophies, etc. GK makes a bundle when we do leos for gymnast gifts. But, USAG doesn't get a cut or anything like that. The profits from meets come back to the gym/boosters and benefit the girls.

DDs gym is pretty well maxed out in terms of space. The competitive gymnasts pay less $$ per hour than our rec kids. If they dropped the Xcel teams, they could hire more rec coaches (who generally are paid less than the team coaches) and the gym could fill those hours with rec classes. But, at DD'S gym, they use Xcel for those girls who want something more than rec, but not as intense as JO. Those gymnasts often have uneven skills and they get the opportunity to compete well all events with a broader range of skills.

Having only one season does mean that girls here do not compete L4 in the fall and L6 or L7 in the spring. I don't know what affect that has on their ultimate progession in terms of getting to L10 young. But, we are in a competitive region in a State with some excellent gyms that produce college and elite gymnasts -- all without competing against Xcel girls in their off season.

 

[profmom]

Fair 'nuff, Raenn. I think Y programs vary a lot (as do USAG programs). The ones with which I am most familiar run smallish team programs that take kids through USAG compulsory skills and compete mostly against each other in meets that do not have USAG sanctions, and then the kids who want to continue switch to JO programs. If I were looking at a Y competitive team, I would not necessarily assume that it competes JO without asking. However, as you note, I'm aware of some programs in our state who field excellent teams that compete in JO optionals.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

[QUOTE="z2akids, post: 405609, member: 17023"
I wonder if the PP is so focused on the financial factors since her gymnast is competing multiple seasons each year. Double the meet fees, etc. But, honestly her gym is the one that benefits from competing both JO and Xcel. They can convince parents to train higher hours than they likely wouldndonof they were using Xcel as a less inrense route. More hours since they are never in an off season and have to spend more time preparing than they would otherwise. More coaches fees, etc. Potentially their gym could host more meets.

[/QUOTE]

Not sure which poster you were referring to again I can only speak to our gym and our area.

Our JO kids train less hours then most other gyms nearby. Regarding JO hours.
They train more hours then some XCel teams but less then others.
And we also have a gymnast who practices even less because of finances, and places well in JO and Xcel. L4 traing 5 hours a week. And having to deal with some very rude and ugly parents this season. I did some digging, one gym trained more Xcel hours then our girls do, one gym trained the same. Neither gym sold their Xcel as anything but competitive.

Training hours and intensity varies widely. Even more so in Xcel but in JO as well. The reality is if you are at a gym that trains 4 hours with Xcel and you compete against a gym that trains 12, the 4 hour gym is likely at a disadvantage and yes the disparity is that great and even greater in Xcel.

Also, Xcel has a regional meet starting at silver, no regional meet for lower JOs.
So to think Xcel is not competitive would be incorrect, it is highly competitve. Again MA had over 900 girls compete silver at states for 7 top spots on state team, I can assure you it's competitive. So a gym that is doing 4 hours a week is probably not making that cut.

The fees for our Xcel meets were higher then the fees for our JO meets.

There were no added meets, if we had not done Xcel we would have done more JO meets. Again our gym is pretty much middle for amount of meets. Some gyms do more per season, some less, and that is for JO.

So there are no extra coaches fees for us because the number of meets doesn't change. No extra coaches because team is team. There is the added cost of floor music and choreography every 2 to 3 years. And even with that, you could chose to do JO only.

Gymnastics has no off season, training is year round. Our gym up trains, year round. A little less during meet season but up training happens. Conditioning all year but it ramps up after the meet season ends.

 

[profmom]

If people are happy with a system and it works, fine. My experience has been that a comp season running more than 4 months starts to feel very long and that more progress is made if competition is concentrated in one part of the year, leaving a nice long stretch for skill work and refinement before it's necessary to start putting together and intensively polishing routines. I am very glad that the boys' FS program, which runs in the fall, does not involve a whole series of meets!

 

[skschlag]

If people are happy with a system and it works, fine. My experience has been that a comp season running more than 4 months starts to feel very long and that more progress is made if competition is concentrated in one part of the year, leaving a nice long stretch for skill work and refinement before it's necessary to start putting together and intensively polishing routines. I am very glad that the boys' FS program, which runs in the fall, does not involve a whole series of meets!

I am with you on this That is why I think the intent of xcel was an different track for girls who didn't want the hours and expense of JO. Now, it sounds like gyms are doing whatever they want with it. Maybe that is the issue.
After all of this, I am glad there is only 1 "track" for the boys!! This is just way to complicated

 

[Avasmom]

At our gym we only have xcel. I have no doubt my xcel bronze daughter could compete level 3. From my understanding it is used at our gym because all of the JO routines are the same and not all of our girls have the same skills. I think it is used as a more individualized training. My daughter has a cartwheel on beam and is training her robhs to compete, and many skills that are probably considered level 4. Her coach has only been working on my dd's robhs for a few weeks and feels it will be competition ready by the end of July. I know that lots of bronze girls are around a level 2 but many are up training and working on higher skills. The only reason I haven't said anything about my daughter moving up is because she doesn't have any experience competing except for last year at one competition when she competed in level 2.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Now, it sounds like gyms are doing whatever they want with it. Maybe that is the issue.

Yep, the rules and lines should of been laid out more explicitly.

 

[profmom]

If there's a problem with girls competing in both streams, this is something that USAG state committees can solve, as they have administrative authority over both USAG and XCel. The easiest fix would be to adjust the competitive schedule so there is little incentive to compete both programs.

 

[twinmomma]

FYI Xcel Bronze also has regionals depending on your region.

I'm sorry, but I don't think Xcel should be used to "fast track" kids out of compulsories and I think you should be limited to one track at a time. DD did XB her first season and was moved up to L3 and is staying in the JO track. If she were to go back to Xcel for whatever reason it certainly wouldn't be back and forth in the same year. USAG's JO track progresses the way it does for a reason. Each season builds on the other.

Honestly, when it comes to the "income" discussion, it does sound like some gyms pushing kids into both streams at once are just looking for ways to squeeze more money out of families. That doesn't mean it's the intent of Xcel.

Competing both at the same time is in my opinion unfair to the kids who are in Xcel for the real reason of the program. Defend it how you want, but if you have kids who are competitive in JO and hitting the podium then they should not be competing against kids who are only Xcel.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

FYI Xcel Bronze also has regionals depending on your region.
Honestly, when it comes to the "income" discussion, it does sound like some gyms pushing kids into both streams at once are just looking for ways to squeeze more money out of families. That doesn't mean it's the intent of Xcel.

Again I can only speak for my gym. Beyond a floor routine, every 2 or 3 years. There is no additional cost, except I have found the entry fees for Xcel to be higher.

Competing both at the same time is in my opinion unfair to the kids who are in Xcel for the real reason of the program. Defend it how you want, but if you have kids who are competitive in JO and hitting the podium then they should not be competing against kids who are only Xcel.

The same can be said for within JO competition, and within Xcel competition.

Our girls on the JO side go up against many gyms that train way more hours then our gym. As there are no firm rule "training" hours. Highly likely those girls will be higher on the podium, yet no one can not cry foul. It is what it is. And on the other side my daughter is a much better gymnast now with less hours then she was at her old gym with more hours. Why? This gym conditions more and makes better use of the hours. So while more hours usually equates with better performance. It quality, not always quantity.

Also had a girl this year on our team grow big time. Didn't up her hours at the gym, but upped conditioning at home. Girl is the pullup queen. Not just hours at the gym, again its what you do. If you want to be better, you need to do the work.

The bottom line is you are competing a BWO or a ROBHS or a FHS, be it Xcel, JO, IGC, YMCA (or whatever other organization you can think of), if you are competing you need to do it well, period. Will more hours help, of course. So will more conditioning. But you need to do it well no matter where you compete.

I am not defending it. But it is allowed.

Nor do I necessarily agree with it, but I am less bothered by it since coming here. Seeing the different ways gyms use it was very eye opening. And how ubber competitive some of those gyms are. Our gym levels them appropriately and doesn't train crazy hours, no where near where a lot gym are using Xcel. But then our gym doesn't demand excessive training to stay on a competitive track.

I agree they should change the rules. But until they do, Xcel will be used in many different ways because it can be.

 

[Along4theRide]

My dd found gymnastics when she was 7...an age that is considered "too old" by some to start competitive gymnastics. However, she has natural talent, strength, and a fantastic work ethic (<--proud mama). We shopped around for a gym that was a good fit, and happened to land at a program that had switched to Xcel away from JO Compulsory that season. (Although, she was offered spots on every team we visited. Not trying to brag, just illustrating that she could have gone down either path) This gym trains similar hours to JO Compulsory programs in the area, the coaches focus on form, the girls uptrain, and condition fiercely.

Xcel was hands-down the perfect program for my dd...and here's why:
-She has always been able to add tricks to her routines as she acquired the new skills. If DD was a Compulsory gymnast, she would have been held back because she didn't have 1 particular skill or another. For example, in Xcel, she competed nearly her whole first season of Silver without her ROBHS. She added it at the end of the season. It was amazing and exciting to watch!

Her coaches are able to train each gymnast "organically"... Developing new skills as their bodies/minds are ready. The whole gym environment is extremely encouraging...less pressure on "level" and more focus on the journey of each gymnast.

And I must add...Xcel competitions are extremely competitive. The range of skills vary widely within each level, but gymnasts with good form receive top scores (same as in Compulsory). Gyms that train higher hours tend to have gymnasts on the podium (same as in Compulsory). BUT the music changes with every floor routine (thankfully NOT the same as Compulsory! ;-)

And to speak a little on my dd's overall gymnastics path...she's has 3 competition seasons. 2 @ Silver. 1 @ Gold/4/5. She scored out of Compulsory levels 4 and 5 last season, and plans to make the switch to JO Optionals this season. I firmly believe that her progress would have been stunted in a JO Compulsory program.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

Since the title of thread is purpose of Xcel, I thought I would respond to the above poster in that context. It is great that you found a gym where Dd can thrive.Proves those rigid gyms that think 7 is too old wrong, and probably show that the old time JO thinking can be flawed in its execution.

But, I had a DD who competed prepopt one year and then Xcel the first year it was implemented by USAG. It was clearly presented at the time as a less expensive, less hours way of attracting and keeping more kids in the sport. This was the spirit and intention of the program. I remember reading guideline and recommendations for number of hours practiced etc. For gyms to train kids with JO hours with the intention of moving them to JO optionals is not the intent of the program. It also was not meant for gymnasts in Xcel to have to compete against JO track gymnasts. We have had kids switch over from Xcel because they clearly exhibited the ability to succeed at JO.
Perhaps Usag is wrong in having compulsories, but I would imagine the progression is there for a reason. What your gym does doesn't violate any rules, but it is not the "purpose of xcel". I suspect 10 years from now it all will be under one umbrella and compulsories may be a thing of the past. If Xcel keeps being used this way, USAG will be forced to.

 

[profmom]

I don't think compulsories will ever go away as training devices for gymnasts hoping to reach the top levels of the sport. I wish some JO programs did not have ridiculous age limits for starting girls in the program, but the compulsory levels serve an important purpose. I very much doubt that the most competitive gyms training kids with the intent of moving them toward elite or college gym will skip out on compulsories, though it seems to me that more of them are jumping into the XCel game.

Compulsory routines are part of the elite track for young gymnasts on both the girls' and boys' side.

 

[raenndrops]

Since the title of thread is purpose of Xcel, I thought I would respond to the above poster in that context. It is great that you found a gym where Dd can thrive.Proves those rigid gyms that think 7 is too old wrong, and probably show that the old time JO thinking can be flawed in its execution.

But, I had a DD who competed prepopt one year and then Xcel the first year it was implemented by USAG. It was clearly presented at the time as a less expensive, less hours way of attracting and keeping more kids in the sport. This was the spirit and intention of the program. I remember reading guideline and recommendations for number of hours practiced etc. For gyms to train kids with JO hours with the intention of moving them to JO optionals is not the intent of the program. It also was not meant for gymnasts in Xcel to have to compete against JO track gymnasts. We have had kids switch over from Xcel because they clearly exhibited the ability to succeed at JO.
Perhaps Usag is wrong in having compulsories, but I would imagine the progression is there for a reason. What your gym does doesn't violate any rules, but it is not the "purpose of xcel". I suspect 10 years from now it all will be under one umbrella and compulsories may be a thing of the past. If Xcel keeps being used this way, USAG will be forced to.

Instead of using Xcel to bypass compulsories, gyms should remember L1-3 are NOT required... and girls who are ready can score out of L4 and L5 as early as 7 years old.
It would make more sense for coaches to market "intense training" without the pressure of meets until the gymnast is ready to score out of compulsories and compete JO L6 ... or L7 for those girls that they want to "fast track".

 

[gymmomtotwo]

I don't think compulsories will ever go away as training devices for gymnasts hoping to reach the top levels of the sport. I wish some JO programs did not have ridiculous age limits for starting girls in the program, but the compulsory levels serve an important purpose. I very much doubt that the most competitive gyms training kids with the intent of moving them toward elite or college gym will skip out on compulsories, though it seems to me that more of them are jumping into the XCel game.

Compulsory routines are part of the elite track for young gymnasts on both the girls' and boys' side.

I agree with you. None of the top gyms in our state skip out on compulsories. The only difference between all of them is whether you start at Level 3 or 4. And they are trending more and more to skipping and testing out of 5 and competing 6 instead. I really think 4 is viewed as an essential level and it would be really rare to not have a gymnast compete a season in it, no matter how good they are. But there is no question that none of them consider Xcel as some sort of substitute for compulsories. USAG needs to figure out what it wants Xcel to be, and figure out a way to avoid it being used in a way it never intended.

 

[sewgood]

My dd found gymnastics when she was 7...an age that is considered "too old" by some to start competitive gymnastics. However, she has natural talent, strength, and a fantastic work ethic (<--proud mama). We shopped around for a gym that was a good fit, and happened to land at a program that had switched to Xcel away from JO Compulsory that season. (Although, she was offered spots on every team we visited. Not trying to brag, just illustrating that she could have gone down either path) This gym trains similar hours to JO Compulsory programs in the area, the coaches focus on form, the girls uptrain, and condition fiercely.

Xcel was hands-down the perfect program for my dd...and here's why:
-She has always been able to add tricks to her routines as she acquired the new skills. If DD was a Compulsory gymnast, she would have been held back because she didn't have 1 particular skill or another. For example, in Xcel, she competed nearly her whole first season of Silver without her ROBHS. She added it at the end of the season. It was amazing and exciting to watch!

Her coaches are able to train each gymnast "organically"... Developing new skills as their bodies/minds are ready. The whole gym environment is extremely encouraging...less pressure on "level" and more focus on the journey of each gymnast.

And I must add...Xcel competitions are extremely competitive. The range of skills vary widely within each level, but gymnasts with good form receive top scores (same as in Compulsory). Gyms that train higher hours tend to have gymnasts on the podium (same as in Compulsory). BUT the music changes with every floor routine (thankfully NOT the same as Compulsory! ;-)

And to speak a little on my dd's overall gymnastics path...she's has 3 competition seasons. 2 @ Silver. 1 @ Gold/4/5. She scored out of Compulsory levels 4 and 5 last season, and plans to make the switch to JO Optionals this season. I firmly believe that her progress would have been stunted in a JO Compulsory program.

I completely agree with Xcel being an awesome program for older gymnasts. My daughter went to a rec-only gym (they had no competitive teams of any type) for a couple of years, but really wanted to compete. So, I looked around at other gyms in the area and found one that looked pretty good and said they were willing to put her in the developmental/pre-team class for the rest of the school year and would then evaluate her for team. We switched her, and this was in late March of last year (2014), when she was 9 years old (she turned 10 during the competition season). So, basically a year ago. At the end of April, so after being at the new gym for about 4 or 5 weeks, they said she could do Xcel Silver. Keep in mind at this point her big skills were a maybe a cartweel and roundoff on the floor, pullover and glide swing on the bars, jumping onto the table for vault and really not much on beam at all (I'm serious, she couldn't hardly walk across it without falling off). Fast forward a year... by the state meet, she place 3rd on bars and in the top 10 in vault, beam, floor and AA. She can do a ROBHSBHS, ROBHSBT, FHS, back extension rolls and many dance skills (that she had NONE of because they didn't work on those at all at the rec gym) on floor; handstand, RO dismount and handstand dismount, leaps and turns on beam, straddle, casts past horizontal, hip circle, kip (still not super consistent on this one though), almost has a free hip circle, jump to high bar, tap swing on bars, HS-flatback, FHS and half on vaults. She's training front and back layous, just started twists, front tuck and gainer dismounts and HS-BWO on beam, perfecting her kip, HS on bars, and doing progressions for yurchenko style vaults (still on the tumble track with mats into the pit for that one; not ready for the table yet).

Anyway, her progress in just a year has been amazing, but it's also been very asynchronous, which her coaches assured me is common with older girls. She would get skills on one apparatus but not have something on another one, So, Xcel was perfect for her. I think it's awesome that they had a place for her and that she was able to compete even though she came to the game a bit late. Her coaches have said that they love having having her, and they said that JO Optionals is a real possibility for her if she keeps progressing well. So, it appears (at least at our gym) that you can switch to JO, if you have the skills to do it. I know that's my daughter's goal.

Sorry for the long, rambling post... I just wanted to point out that one purpose (although not the main purpose) of Xcel is to offer something to older girls who come to the sport a little later. Most of the girls at our gym and here on CB (on both the JO and Xcel teams) seem to have started by 3 y/o - and many started in the parent and tot class at 18 mo. Anyway, 9/10 years old isn't too late, especially if you have the right coach. I wish more gyms would realize that, and I'm really glad we found one that's been so great for our daughter.

I still can't believe how good she's gotten in just one year. She loves it so much, too. I've never seen her be so passionate about anything before, and it makes me so proud to watch her work so hard for something she loves. She's really grown maturity-wise, too, and I think a lot of it is from the discipline she gets at gymnastics. No more fighting over homework, going to bed, etc. She just does it. That alone is worth any amount we are paying in tuition.

 

[cbifoja]

I would love to see the JO and Xcel seasons to be required to run concurrently. I am one who believes that Xcel should be reserved for gymnasts who for whatever reason, aren't interested in going JO. I strongly disagree with the philosophy of using it to pass through compulsories. I get that USAG doesn't have a rule in place that forbids it outright, but given that they do state the intent of Xcel, I think it's rather shoddy for gyms to send their JO teams to sweep up at Xcel meets. I also believe that USAG should publish maximum hours that Xcel teams can practice and still compete Xcel. If you are practicing 15+ hours a week, it is simply absurd to fairly compete against Xcel kids who are doing >10.