WAG Which L10 routine is better .....

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Muddlethru

Proud Parent
...if performed equally 'well'

1) jump to high bar, blind, piked jaeger, Kip cast handstand to overshoot, hiccup or squat on, cast handstand, blind full to double back; or

2) jump to high bar, blind, piked jaeger, Kip cast handstand to overshoot, hiccup or squat on, cast handstand, giant giant double layout.

So the difference between the two is blind full to double back or giant giant to double layout.

Additional questions:

1) Is this a 10 SV?
2) what is the value of a piked jaeger? Coach says it's an E? I saw somewhere that it was a D.

HC asked my daughter to pick which routine she wants to do. Everything is still a work in progress.
 
Pike jaeger is an E in JO and NCAA, but a D in elite.

The DLO routine is free from composition deductions. If she can do that skill well, she should try for that dismount.

Never uphill in JO unless you need it for bonus. Jump to the high bar. In elite, you must uphill because jumping to the high bar is not in the code.
 
Double lay is also an E. So the blind full to double back is not worth the same as a Double lay because the routine with the 2 E's should get the nod from the judges over the E plus typical full to double. A good judge will reward the Double lay every time. But you need the hiccup , because if you do 2 squat ons you will get a deduction. As others have said the Yeager is an E also. If you connect the Bail to Hiccup you will get a .1 bonus, Your start value depends on your Bail, if it ends/starts in a H stand then you get a D and a tenth Bonus, add the Hiccup direct and another .1 is granted. Or do a couple of circling elements at the beginning. I guess the real question is how is your Double lay at this point? :)
 
Double lay is also an E. So the blind full to double back is not worth the same as a Double lay because the routine with the 2 E's should get the nod from the judges over the E plus typical full to double. A good judge will reward the Double lay every time. But you need the hiccup , because if you do 2 squat ons you will get a deduction. As others have said the Yeager is an E also. If you connect the Bail to Hiccup you will get a .1 bonus, Your start value depends on your Bail, if it ends/starts in a H stand then you get a D and a tenth Bonus, add the Hiccup direct and another .1 is granted. Or do a couple of circling elements at the beginning. I guess the real question is how is your Double lay at this point? :)

Is a hiccup a lightning/Chinese? I always wondered why level 10 don't do those since they seem to be a pretty easy release move?
 
Is a hiccup a lightning/Chinese? I always wondered why level 10 don't do those since they seem to be a pretty easy release move?

Yes on your first question. A good number of 10s do hiccups if they don't have a single bar release. However, many seem to struggle with it. When my daughter did it last year at her first L10 meet, she ended up in a dead hang. She muscled her way out of it without stepping down but the dreaded dead hang tends to happen quite a bit with this skill.
 
Pike jaeger is an E in JO and NCAA, but a D in elite.

The DLO routine is free from composition deductions. If she can do that skill well, she should try for that dismount.

Never uphill in JO unless you need it for bonus. Jump to the high bar. In elite, you must uphill because jumping to the high bar is not in the code.

Thank you very much lemonlime! I also appreciate the tip on "never uphill in JO unless you need it for bonus". So, she can safely scratch the hiccup.
 
Double lay is also an E. So the blind full to double back is not worth the same as a Double lay because the routine with the 2 E's should get the nod from the judges over the E plus typical full to double. A good judge will reward the Double lay every time. But you need the hiccup , because if you do 2 squat ons you will get a deduction. As others have said the Yeager is an E also. If you connect the Bail to Hiccup you will get a .1 bonus, Your start value depends on your Bail, if it ends/starts in a H stand then you get a D and a tenth Bonus, add the Hiccup direct and another .1 is granted. Or do a couple of circling elements at the beginning. I guess the real question is how is your Double lay at this point? :)

Was hoping to hear from you. So, thanks for your response.

Her bail as it stands is not from HS to HS. Coach is not even working it from that end saying she is not the HS to HS type. He tried it for a week last summer and indicated it seemed to not come easy. It appears to me his MO is to teach the skills that come easy for each gymnast. No problem with this MO, but just wished he gave my daughter more than a week because my daughter wanted to get it to handstand.

In the routine in my original post, there is only a possibility of one squat on. She starts at the high bar. So I guess she's fine? Would adding giants and sole circles be good for circling elements? As far as where her double lay, I don't think it is there at this point and is still being spotted. I don't ever watch practice, so I personally do not know. But since the coach offered this option, I am assuming (right or wrong) that he feels she could have it by meet season?
 
My oldest didn't do an overshoot to HS consistently until about her 3rd year doing it...so I would keep at it.. She did get her DLO dismount off bars relatively easy and early though...
 
Okay, so your value is .2 for the pike, and .1 for the connection to the pike., .2 for the double lay. I would put the hiccup at the beginning or toe shoot to hiccup, or freehip to hiccup. This just adds a little more onto the routine in terms of variety of skills and also eliminates an extra kip cast after the bail. If she can bail and step directly in to a stoop circle that would eliminate another kip and potential reason for judges to write.
 
That is a pretty "standard" Level 10 routine in our parts - except most people only do a straddle jaeger and will put a clearhip/toe hand/stalder in front of the bail for connection bonus even if the bail doesn't go to handstand you get c+c bonus... also, we were told that the 360 double tuck routine can get a "up to level" deduction, especially at regionals/nationals... also, most people will lose a tenth or two on the hiccup, so it can be more trouble than its worth. If you gain the .1 in bonus and avoid losing a tenth with a second squat on, then it might be ok to add
 
That is a pretty "standard" Level 10 routine in our parts - except most people only do a straddle jaeger and will put a clearhip/toe hand/stalder in front of the bail for connection bonus even if the bail doesn't go to handstand you get c+c bonus... also, we were told that the 360 double tuck routine can get a "up to level" deduction, especially at regionals/nationals... also, most people will lose a tenth or two on the hiccup, so it can be more trouble than its worth. If you gain the .1 in bonus and avoid losing a tenth with a second squat on, then it might be ok to add

" up to level" deduction? Can you please explain this? My daughter did a blind full to double back last season. So she got deductions for this? And what was the deduction?

From what is said in this thread, straddle jaeger is a D and a pike jaeger is an E and a double layout is an E also. Your region is I think a lot tougher than ours. So I gave two options of a routine, which one is the "standard" or what was your daughter's second year Level 10 bar routine. This is all new to me. I'd love to hear what your daughter's bar routine was last year? How the standard routines do vs. the more complicated or harder routines, etc. Thanks.
 
" up to level" deduction? Can you please explain this? My daughter did a blind full to double back last season. So she got deductions for this? And what was the deduction?

From what is said in this thread, straddle jaeger is a D and a pike jaeger is an E and a double layout is an E also. Your region is I think a lot tougher than ours. So I gave two options of a routine, which one is the "standard" or what was your daughter's second year Level 10 bar routine. This is all new to me. I'd love to hear what your daughter's bar routine was last year? How the standard routines do vs. the more complicated or harder routines, etc. Thanks.

You are correct, the pike jaeger and double layout are both E's and definitely preferred. My dd only did a straddle jaeger and then did toe-hand, to bail handstand... she couldn't make the double layout last year because she was still swinging on FIG, so she did double pike for a few meets and double tuck for a few... Her best score with the double pike was 9.35 and her best with the double tuck was 9.2. Her start value without the double layout was only 9.9 and she took a .1 for 2 squat-ons... at our judges critique before regionals, our girls were told the double tuck dismount could receive a .1 deduction for choice of element.

Here is the link to the judges cheat sheet... take a look at the composition deductions. I think working both of those dismounts is not a bad idea. My dd says a double layout is a lot harder at the end of a routine than it is by itself. A more complicated but similar routine had a toe blind into the jaeger and went toe hand bail toe hecht, then 360 to giant giant full twisting double back dismount.


https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx07_L9-10cheatsheet2014.pdf
 
The double lay or full out should score higher than the 1/1 to double back. Emphasis on the word should,,, but there is a problem with the judging system currently that needs to be fixed. NCAA just fixed the problem, now it is JO's turn. Several of the deductions are labeled as "up to .2", so many judges are only taking a .05 or .1 instead of the full .2 in L10 routines, which is a travesty to all the kids who take big risk throwing big skills... Example, no Major release or (no two release D's) should be .2 deduction period. But currently they are not doing this. But they absolutely will hammer a kid who is short of handstand the full .2 or .3 (as they should)... So what we have is a system that is taking full deductions for bent legs, and H stands, but being soft deductions that involve easier routines. In my opinion, bonus should be raised or doubled, in other words .7 required for L10 routines, but raise the bonus for major releases and big dismounts by .1 additionally to create a bigger reward for risk. (example, double lay .3, full in or full out, .2 etc...) but that would require a major change in the code. Easier resolutions are available and people are working on proposing them as we speak. :)
 
Even if one can consistently do bigger skills, the margin for error is higher. My daughter just turned 14 in July and was very excited to tell me she may compete two E skills this year. She thought it was a big deal. Now I hear it is not. I wonder 2gymmies, since your daughter did not have the standard routine you mention in your area, how do you think it affected her bar scores? Did the girls who did the "standard" or more difficult skills get higher or lower scores? I know it all depends on execution, but generally? Coachp, if judges don't seem to reward for bigger skills, is it worth throwing? What are the big skills? I guess it would be F skills. What are the F skills being competed in. JO level 10?

I've seen some L10s do L9 bar routines or even L8 with a poorly executed bail score in the mid 8s: and then some girls do a legit L10 routine get only slightly higher. Not being a coach or a judge, I may not see a lot of things but there certainly are obvious form issues, height, dynamic that is noticeable to even the most inexperience. Is there a general rule on how far to take a routine? Not that my daughter can take it much farther than where she is right now. Just wondering.

Lastly, is there a "general" age (or number of years) in Level 10 that learning new skills, upgrades in routine seem to come to a halt and perfecting or maintaining the skills have is all they do? As such, getting the "big skills" must almost be learned before they reach that age? Even in the elite level, some girls have a hard time adding more difficulty. I know every gymnast is different, but I still think there is some kind of consensus.
 
o_O:eek::oops: my dd is training 7. i finally felt like i knew pretty much about skills needed per level and such UNTIL....i read this thread and realized i'm going to eventually be totally clueless again, aren't i? o_O:eek::oops:
 
The big skills are well worth throwing because that is the essence of L10,,, that is what the colleges are looking at,,,, and hopefully soon the reward will be there. Currently the interpretation of the wording "up to .2" is subjective to what the judges are told to take by other judges within that region (I have been told that .05 is common, which is a travesty) . A scale needs to be put into place defining exactly what is the full .2 deduction (which in my opinion should be just about everything that is not up to the standard of L10). But yes, nothing more irritating than watching a L9 routine in L10 score in the low 9's, while other girls are throwing huge skills, getting deductions on those skills and ending up with the same score or lower if they fall. Obviously performing the big skills flawlessly will result in a bigger score, but currently the separation isn't enough to justify the risk or potential fall.
Currently if a gymnast has no high to low release it's a flat .2, so it is the opinion of many that the following be a flat deduction as well.
.2 with no major D release
.2 with no D or E dismount, (with the exception of D skill immediate to C dismount which should be a flat .1 deduction).
These should be automatic along with the usual lack of variety of skills and other deductions that can be taken as well,,,
 
Bars was a signficant issue for my dd last year - she only counted for her team score at 1 meet and only placed on bars at a couple, she made her bar routine at NIT and didn't quite score a 9, (almost fell on a squat on of all things) - in my opinion, the best scoring routines seemed to be hard throughout the routine, hit handstands and had very tight form - it sounds like your dd is definitely on her way to the first of those things!!!
 

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