WAG XCEL Gold Judges, Help

[duyetanh]

I'm pretty sure a robhsbt is more difficult than a robhsbhs, a fly away layout is much more difficult than a 1/2 twist dismount, and a bwo is more difficult than a cartwheel on beam.

Sorry, but I call fowl. It shows how you still have a lot to learn. A bwo is a HECK of a lot easier to learn than a cartwheel on beam, because you can see where you are going. A cartwheel is a blind move. I have heard my daughters' coaches say this. I have also read it many times on here.
And for many children, the robhsbt is so much easier...my child being one of them.

 

[duyetanh]

It won't allow me to edit so I will post here:
My child also does a better flyaway than the level 4 bars dismount. She sucked at it. Coach banded her legs together and everything. And I doubt my child is an anomaly....

 

[duyetanh]

Oh and btw...I am not trying to stir the pot here either. But it's gymnastics. There is no black and white. It's all shades of gray....

 

[kimkuzma2]

Ah, was easy. Just put OPs screen name into you tube.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were posting- I wasn't getting any email notifications anymore for some reason. But as I read through all of your comments, I am overwhelmed by a few of you adding to the conversation with very little valuable input on my question but with very negative, purposefully mean responses about my daughter for some reason. You continued on so relentlessly that other posters had to ask you to stop. Thank you to the poster who asked for civility to return in my absence. I will attempt to address your misconception on my original inquiry while addressing some of your off topic nastiness. Then I will not return to this post as I feel it has been overtaken by a few unkind guests with nothing valuable to add. I'm glad it turned back to valuable conversation by the end of this thread.

About my original query: at no time was I centered on my kid. Truthfully, she is just returning from a broken collarbone that occurred picking up a rake in my mom's front yard right as her Xcel season began, so she's not even close to being in top form to win anything right now. I was speaking for the other kids I watch do layout fly always, bwo on beam, robhsbt, fhsft, back tuck dismounts for scores like 9.4 get beat by kids who do double bhs, no kip, and 1/2 turn dismounts for 9.45. They obviously had the same amount of form deductions and scored the same. .05 is a matter of opinion at that point. The lower skilled routine won while it barely squeaked .05 higher than a much higher skilled routine only because there is nothing in the scoring to account for skill level- all skills all equal from a scoring stand point but very different from an execution stand point. That is where I feel bad for the kid whose routine was much higher in difficulty and barely squeaked into a lower placement. That is what does not seem fair to me as I watch everyone- not my kid. I did mention that, but some of you continued to negate that post and continue as if I was comparing a big skilled routine that earned an 8 to an easier skilled routine that scored a 9.5. Well obviously, no matter the skill, one was better. That was not my inquiry, but thanks for so adamantly clearing that up. If I thought it then, I definitely wouldn't now. But I do still feel the same about my original inquiry.

To the poster who started stalking me solely to post meanly about my daughter for whatever reason that made you feel good- and to the posters who openly jumped on that ban wagon of unkindness-

My YouTube channel- you criticize form of my daughter- why? Do you realize those videos were when she first tried a new skill? Whose form is perfect upon first learning? Do you also realize she was 4 or 5 in most of those videos? What 4 or 5 yo has perfect form? Do you realize the kip video you so harshly criticized was the day she kipped up onto the bar for the first time ever and she was not yet 5 1/2? I bet you'd have been proud if that was your dd and you wouldn't have been so critical. But it was of someone else's daughter, so you felt the need to cyber bully. Thank you for your invaluable, unkind comments that at no point was relative to my original inquiry. How about the video of her doing robhsbt, robhsbp, and robhsbl? I wouldn't allow her to even try those skills until after lvl 3 states were over where she was still 6yo. After much nagging, the day after, I let her try- and wow- how amazing. She could do it all with never trying before. Perfect form? Heck no! Again- still 6yo and just learned the skill- but you should see her now at 7yo She was never taught that in a gym. It's amazing, I guess, only if it were your daughter- someone else's daughter opens up the flood gates of your critical side.

All the equipment in my basement? The tumbl trac? I was a diving coach for 12 years who owned my own program and dry land facility where I purchased all that equipment for use with my divers. After I had my daughter and didn't get to see her as much as I wanted to, I slowly cut back on my coaching hours to spend my time with my family. I stored my equipment in my basement. Lucky for my daughter who loves gymnastics, her mom already owned some pretty cool gym equipment for her to play on And no, the wall isn't concrete, it's padded, so you can rest your weary worries for the safety of my daughter whom you care so much about to openly criticize.

To the other diving coach. Yes- competing a double pike for 4s will get beat by a clean front 1 1/2 pike any day. As I said in my post, competing a clean front double pike and a clean front 1 1/2 pike- the higher degree of difficulty by far wins when execution is equal or even slightly lower. But that does not happen in gymnastics I see- which is the basis of my original question. So therefore, never will a clean list of voluntaries beat a clean list of optionals. Not even close. I agree that clean voluntaries beat poor optionals that are not meet ready. But in all instances, I am solely talking about skills in both arenas that are definitely meet ready.

To those who criticized me saying "anything above a 9 is stellar"- I'm sorry you disagreed so harshly with me. Wow. That's all I can say- wow. Your expectations of your daughters must be extremely high. Any time any kid earns a 9 or higher is a score to be proud of! That's pretty darn close to precise 10 is perfect- which pretty much never is attained. Any score with less than a full point deducted is indeed stellar in my book, and definitely qualifies the skills that were performed stellar and meet ready as well

To the same posters who criticized me for "pushing" my daughter through the levels. On the contrary, I held her back a year. Her coaches wanted her on "old lvl 3" "new level 2" the day she turned 5. I said no-that's too many hours and I pulled her out of gymnastics as they had no other placement for her but on team. Then they started lvl 1 and asked me to put her there- less hours which I wanted, but way below her skill level (our gym does not upskill at all). So I did. Half way through, they wanted to mover her up to lvl 2. I said no. Let her be 5yo. I don't want more hours for her. After that season, they skipped her to lvl 3 because I was comfortable with her getting older and handling the hours. Then they skipped her to Xcel gold after lvl 3 states because she already had more skills than a new lvl 6 in our gym and the hours were all pretty much the same- 12 hours a week. Again- we don't upskill so for her to practice any of her bigger skills, she'd have to be in Xcel gold. Our gym does not do lvl 5. Then it goes back into lvl 6 or lvl 7. She already has every lvl 6 skill and some lvl 7 skills. But I might hold her back because of the jump in hours- she's 7yo. What holds her form back from the "stellar" scores of 9.75s? Flexibility. She cannot physically attain certain positions. Her hamstrings are like string- not rubber bands. So because she doesn't perform at the 9.75 or 9.8 "perfect form" that you think is the only definition of stellar, is that a good enough reason to hold her back in lvl 4? I don't think so. She'd be there the rest of her career and never do more than a rodbhs.

Overall, some of your comments were appalling, relentless, very off topic to my inquiry, highly critical, and very unkind just to prove a point that my daughter sucks and I'm a horrible person for possessing gym equipment in my house.... Cyber bullying at it's finest Your posts reminded me of a quote from Stick It- "They don't call it gym-NICE-tics." Thank you, Unkind Posters, for being my first go around with the overzealousness that can come with the people of this sport in my 3 years of being involved. I'm glad to say you have been the minority in my experiences. I will not visit this account any longer. I will stick to conversing with real people who do not hide behind a computer to spew their nastiness towards other people's children in this sport

 

[gymdog]

I'm pretty sure a robhsbt is more difficult than a robhsbhs, a fly away layout is much more difficult than a 1/2 twist dismount, and a bwo is more difficult than a cartwheel on beam.

Nope, all As. They might be harder in your opinion but they're the same exact value. Anyway, that is the beauty of Xcel, it all just depends on the child. Cartwheels are very hard to compete and lots of kids land a walkover better. I have seen kids who have less deductions on ro bhs bt than ro bhs bhs. Same with half twist dismount and flyaway.

I still think you should become a gymnastics coach, because you seem to have a strong interest in how all this works. I think you would find it very interesting.

 

[sce]

Actually no- she is as high as she is allowed to compete based on age. This is our gym's only option since they do not do lvl 5. And I doubt she will go into those higher levels or elite- her flexibility is holding her back in form and she will never attain perfect form in some elements. Her hamstrings are like strings- not rubber bands. And no amount of stretching has helped.

Why didn't she just do a season of level 4? Gymnastics is more than just the big skills. Leaps, presentation etc. are all part of it too. Maybe slowing down would help her get the other parts together. She is so young, why the rush? Why does the score out have to be in the summer. Aren't there meets all year?

 

[raenndrops]

Actually no- she is as high as she is allowed to compete based on age. This is our gym's only option since they do not do lvl 5. And I doubt she will go into those higher levels or elite- her flexibility is holding her back in form and she will never attain perfect form in some elements. Her hamstrings are like strings- not rubber bands. And no amount of stretching has helped.

In addition to the above, you said she scored out of L4 this summer... but they didnt have her score out of L5 because they didn't want to teach her too many routines.
The L5 routines are intentionally similar to the L4 routines. She could have done the L5 score out and competed L6 or L7 this year and you wouldn't have to deal with your issues with Xcel. Instead, in L6, you would have dealt with floor routines with ROBHSBHS and FT beating routines with ROBHSBLO and FHSFT... and beam routines with a handstand beating routines with a bhs or bwobwo... and routines with underswing dismounts beating routines with layout flyways. Sounds like the same issues you have with Xcel.

 

[duyetanh]

Well I didn't know that divers used bars and beams as part of their land workouts. So I have learned something from this thread.

 

[sevenatenine2]

I really do understand the OP's original concern. I have a group of Gold's that were mightily out scored on bars by almost everyone at our last meet. All my Gold's kip, two with the tiniest of bent elbows and one with a form break with her legs. I also have some kip on the high bar and others do flyaways. My athletes scored fine--between 8.8 and 9.3--but routines were scoring 9.8 that consisted of pullover, cast, back hip circle, cast, squat on, Level 4 dismount. As a coach, I have to examine whether to change our routines in order to be competitive or not. For now, we will stick with the harder routines bc I have plans for this group to move to 6 eventually. That might change as we get closer to State.

My Silvers purposefully compete the easiest (imo) routine and score 9.5+ routinely. It's been a coaching strategy to compete that routine and train the lips and squat ons for next year.


It is what it is!

 

[sevenatenine2]

I have noticed that so much of Xcel depends on routine composition, which would be frustrating for a parent or athlete that has no say on the matter. I have seen videos of kids performing routines that look good, but I know will never score great because of too many or unnecessary skills.

And for people who say that how they do at the lower levels doesn't matter, if most kids don't make it to the upper tier of gymnastics---this is all they have and of course it matters. I have watched the children of acquaintances that are at a more serious gym than mine get pushed up to Level 4 after Level 1 or 2. Then they struggle as season as a 7 yo 4 when they could be kicking butt at 3. Sure, they are a higher level, but are they a better gymnast? Idk. I am sure there's a long term plan there, but if the kid quits before L6, as most do, I think it's sad they were never able to experience competitive success in their gymnastics career---all in the name of progress.

Just some thoughts!

 

[Uppity]

Ok- so then.

You, as a coach, decide to enter your divers in a competition. The rules state there is no difficulty bonus, it'e execution scores only. So a 3.5 is 1.0, same as a 1.5.

You choose to enter that competition (Xcel), rather than one which uses FINA DD (JO).

You can't then turn around and complain that divers competing 3.5's got beat by those competing simple 101B, can you? And that they should get credit for doing the harder stuff.

You know the rules when entering. if they don't suit, and you want competition that accounts for DD, don't enter. Do JO instead.

I'm sure you have had divers who's well meaning parents have taught them stuff on home tramps and you've had to spend ages fixing bad habits. Same applies to gymnastics.

 

[AgingHippie]

My daughter too. I though we were the only ones. Learning the flyaway took a while but now that she has got, it's easier for her then the L4 dismount. Crazy.

 

[sevenatenine2]

Back walkovers on beam are definitely easier than cartwheels because you just have to keep your body straight versus make that half turn. They are certainly scarier, but definitely easier!

 

[ROMfan]

OP -- no one was being insulting or highly critical of your daughter. They were trying to explain why she (or any child) may score lower even with higher difficulty

For instance, if you read my post I said that she didn't have great form, ( like the bent arm kip) but was clearly talented. And that some time in compulsories might've cleaned up the form.

You should be proud of her. But if you are going to post videos for everyone to see , turn the defensiveness down a notch.

It all comes down to -- xcel (or optionals) have a range of skills. They all start from a 10 so are judged on how they are done. ....

 

[IreneKa]

Thanks. I'm on my tablet, and couldnt find that - I knew it existed though (called a gym out on it before). Glad someone else reads the rules

Sorry, I know it's OT, but now I'm really curious.
That girl I was talking about competed L4 last year at our gym, had all the skills, went to states, didn't have any injuries. Over the summer she switched to another gym, and they put her in Xcel Silver. If it's against the rules, how did they do it? Is that just that no one really checks? Could it be that they got her a new USAG number, and on one checked that she competed before? It's not like they require a social security number or something, right?

 

[bogwoppit]

Sorry, I know it's OT, but now I'm really curious.
That girl I was talking about competed L4 last year at our gym, had all the skills, went to states, didn't have any injuries. Over the summer she switched to another gym, and they put her in Xcel Silver. If it's against the rules, how did they do it? Is that just that no one really checks? Could it be that they got her a new USAG number, and on one checked that she competed before? It's not like they require a social security number or something, right?

I think coaches cheating the system happens more than we realise. I have heard of a few sneaky moves that have gone under the radar like that ^^^.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Not just in the states either, I know Pink has competed at invitationals against girls who are competing down at least one level

 

[GYM0M]

I'm pretty sure a robhsbt is more difficult than a robhsbhs, a fly away layout is much more difficult than a 1/2 twist dismount, and a bwo is more difficult than a cartwheel on beam.

Nope, all A's. So like I dd, more progressed, but not more difficult

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Daughter and her team when they finish their L4 season will be scoring out of 5 and onto 6. All busy working those skills. Chatting with her bar coach, it was my thinking the flyaway was going to be the toughest. He was like no it's actually one of the easier skills, technically. He said every kid on the team is technically ready to do it. It's that it is scary. He says once they go for it and realize they can do it, It's done. And that moment is different for all of them.

 

[wgagym]

OP if you don't know the difficulty standards in our code of points you might think those skills are higher difficulty but all the skill mentioned are considered A skills, so technically they are the same difficulty and therefore even if they had a bonus for difficulty it would not apply.