i'm new and my head is spinning!

[gymdog]

USTA has competitive tumbling at these ages. From what I've heard the little kids usually zero out by bouncing too many times (tramp) or putting their hands down (tumbling), etc. The tumbling routine is like several consecutive forward rolls.

[Ingymmom]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gym law mom Ingy--I do have to disagree that you can't stop some kids from advancing. With a 4 or 5 yo, who has the car keys and checkbook? The parents do. If you think its too much, then back off. Will your dd be upset? Maybe/maybe not. They may find other activities to try or just enjoy the extra time to be a little girl. Remember, they only have 1 spine, 2 knees etc. that has to last them for a very long time.

I know what you are saying completely. There is much controversy surrounding this issue, I was trying to avoid that part of it... I really just wanted to welcome the poster to the group. While I was typing my thoughts wandered onto my nephew who was such a dare devil kid (he is probably the scariest in a long list of dare devil members of our fam) and was flipping by himself at a very young age - on the grass, off the porch, to this day he is still unstoppable (terrifying to say the least) and has never taken any organized class of any sort, T&T, gym, skateboarding or anything, they don't even have a tramp - His mom could not then, and can't now stop him from experimenting the craziest things. I have no clue if this is the case of this parent or gymnast.

I referred this parent because I knew that she would find a wealth of info here, better to always stay informed - all of this info is fantastic & I am certain will help her be as aware as possible

[mariposamama]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gym law mom Ingy--I do have to disagree that you can't stop some kids from advancing. With a 4 or 5 yo, who has the car keys and checkbook? The parents do. If you think its too much, then back off. Will your dd be upset? Maybe/maybe not. They may find other activities to try or just enjoy the extra time to be a little girl. Remember, they only have 1 spine, 2 knees etc. that has to last them for a very long time.

That is what I was thinking, but couldn't figure out how to say it. I still struggle with my decision to let DD do team and she is almost 6. She started at age 4 and there would have been no way, but then again, my DD isn't super talented so I didn't have to face the decision. She took almost a year to learn how to do a cartwheel. LOL. And at almost 6 she still can't do a BHS by herself except on a 4" mat, so I haven't had to tell a super talented kid no. Probably easier said than done, especially once they have tasted all that time in the gym and love it.

I do think that if her goal is to do L4 at age 6 that I would skip the tumbling competition and have her do preteam/team and limit her hours in the gym.

My DDs best friend only goes 3 hours a week at almost 5 (in July) and she is in a gym that does very well and has L10s that get college scholarships. She will be going 5 hours a week in a few months. She is still progressing rapidly because she is naturally talented, but she is going the hours a 4 year old should be doing in the gym. She still teaches herself tricks at home, things they don't work on at all in her current preteam class, but it is playing around and that is hard to stop. She has taught herself front walkovers, BHSs, BWOs, etc all at home playing around. It goes to show that talented kids can still progress without going overboard.

This is always going to be a hot topic because it is a controversial subject, especially with the younger children. The OP expressed her concerns and I think wanted both sides and she is definitely getting that.

In the end, we as parents have to make our own choice. We have to research everything there is to know, consider the risks and benefits and then make our decision. We all have different comfort levels and will see risks/benefits differently. Some of us would happily jump out of a plane with a parachute and others would never even think of it. We all have different perspectives. That is why I love this board.

To the OP, I hope you can learn as much here as I have. It really is a great place!

[sheplaysinthechalk]

okay. I feel a little bit like i opened a can of worms. That wasn't really my intention. Yes, USTA does have competitive tumbling for young ones. Yes, most of the really young children do zero out - especially in the sub beginner category where most of the children are 3 or 4 years old and doing a series of front rolls. Beginner tumbling is a forward and backward series combination of front rolls, straddle rolls, handstand rolls, cartwheels and roundoffs. likewise for the backward pass. Advanced beginner is walkovers and limbers. The deductions and rules are way different from artistic gymnastics.

As far as my daughter competing in tumbling: She practices 3 hours a week in the gym doing gymnastics. They work on tumbling skills in the gymnastics program. She started taking classes in april of 2007 and progressed quickly. Some of the team kids came back from Nationals last year and brought in their awards. When my daughter saw them, that's all she talked about. "i want to go to the trophy store. I want to get a big giant trophy like the big girls." She was only three at the time, thus the "trophy store" comment. I told her that she had to get bigger like the big girls. The coaches later approached me and suggested that she may be able to do well in the tumbling competitions due to her age and ability (most children her age zero out, and my daughter was doing passes that would receive a score, basically, and she would get a trophy) I didn't really think it was that big a deal. UNTIL...she was moved up to advanced beginner - where the age group is no longer 4 and under. It's 5 and under. There was my 3 1/2 year old competing against children who were almost 6. At that point i thought to myself "i guess what dd does isn't really normal. where are all of the other kids her age that can do the things that she does?" Anyway, what i'm saying is that I wasn't pushing her to compete - neither were her coaches, really. It was more of a "well if the kid wants a trophy, she can probably get one if she tries a tumbling competition" So we tried it, she won, and she wanted to do it again. She kept winning all season. Next season is a WAY different story.

I've thought about it a lot over the past couple of days. The next age group for her tumbling competitions is 6 and under. She'll then still be 4 competing against children more than 2 years older than she is. It's not really a fair competition A...and B she's only 4. What's the rush? I'm not sure that she'll compete next season. I don't want her in a position where she has to be judged against a child who may be getting ready to turn 7. It's all really about form, but older children have more experience. I would hate for my daughter to walk away from it (without the prized trophy) disappointed and want to quit gymnastics - or even worse, have her thinking that there is something wrong with her because she isn't winning anymore.

And i don't know if it's that the coaches are necessarily rushing her per se, I think it might just be that she's progressing right now. And who's to say that she's not going to plateau in three months?? I'm not really worried about it if she does. She's 4. It's not like we are in a gym that can take her to the olympics or anything like that. In fact, my little girl doesn't even know what the olympics are. I just want her to have fun in the gym and i want it to be safe (as safe as gymnastics can be). That's it.

[gymdog]

I would share your concerns with the coaches. Correct me if I'm wrong. but USTA has some kind of mandantory move up system if they achieve a certain thing at nationals, right? That's hard in some ways when they are young and competing is just for experience, and you can't keep a kid back at a lower level. But maybe you can come up with a solution like waiting a couple months into the season to compete, or something else. I knew someone with a DD who was a great tumbler and started in USTA under 5. By about 6 she could already do full twists I believe, but she had progressed so fast and ended up having serious fear issues. They had to take a lot of steps back. She's no longer doing gym but she is doing cheer and great at it.

[Ingymmom]

sheplaysinthechalk - you certainly don't need to explain yourself or your intentions for your dd. Although, I am so happy you felt comfortable to tell your story. I truly hope you will find the CB as a great source of information as I have. There are many sides to a situation, and it is wonderful to hear many different opinions and perspectives.

It sounds to me as if you have a strong handle on your situation & I commend you for your great attitude.

BTW - I think the trophy story is too cute!

[sheplaysinthechalk]

yes, USTA does have a mandatory move up system if the child places (i think in the top 3 at nationals or something. My daughter has been mandated to sub novice for next season, which i think is ridiculous. She can do the passes well, but like i said, she'll still be 4 when season starts. I guess as far as competing goes, she could go ahead and compete, and then probably not attend the state competition - then she wouldn't even qualify for nationals - then it would be impossible to be mandated?

And, i do really appreciate everyone's different perspectives. It's really really helpful and has given me much to think about - especially since my girl is so young and doing so many skills. I was originally concerned because i read something about growth plates and the spine and joints. I was kind of wondering if what my daughter is doing is a big deal. Her stretches aren't being forced. She's just performing the skills on her own. So is it dangerous if the child is doing these things solo, or is it dangerous if the extensions are being forced?

[gymdog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheplaysinthechalk And, i do really appreciate everyone's different perspectives. It's really really helpful and has given me much to think about - especially since my girl is so young and doing so many skills. I was originally concerned because i read something about growth plates and the spine and joints. I was kind of wondering if what my daughter is doing is a big deal. Her stretches aren't being forced. She's just performing the skills on her own. So is it dangerous if the child is doing these things solo, or is it dangerous if the extensions are being forced?

It's pretty impossible to say for sure. What I can say is that we do have information that it can be of concern considering the development of the spine (think about how we are now cautioned to keep kids rear facing in a car seat longer and by age...what I have heard is that even if they are the height and weight of an older baby, it doesn't mean their spine and neck has reached the same development...of course it gets uncomfortable for the taller babies and toddlers when the legs are folded and some compromise may have to be reached but the best thing the experts can tell us is that at a certain age the risks are generally lessened and that we are advised that optimal risk management is to follow the recommendations). Other concerns might include growth plates during times of rapid growth, and the amount of cartilage vs bone (I think this is a concern with the sternum in young children). The USAG recommendations are that coaches avoid activities that stress or compress the spine of preschoolers. This is a recommendation designed for optimal risk management and to avoid injuries over the long based on cost/benefit analysis. Again, the overall picture doesn't really seem to indicate the benefits outweighing the costs, of training children in these ways from a young age.

As far as being able to do it vs being pulled, certainly a preschooler should not be pulled into a bridge or position like that - that could cause traumatic injury and it could be hard to assess the extent immediately. I have not seen all research on this, so I can only tell you anecdotally - ability to achieve these positions without support does not seem in my experience to mean that overuse injuries will not be a concern. The best you can do in my opinion is limit spine compression and monitor her carefully and pull her out temporarily (until healed) at the first sign of an overuse injuries.

[Jamarie]

I'm chiming in on the USTA part of the discussion since we just returned from the 2008 USTA Nationals on Saturday. If your daughter competed there in the 5 & under advanced beginner group she only mandated if she was national champion. If there are 9 or less competitors (I think 8 were there) only the first place mandates. My daughter started tumbling at age 7 and went advanced this year at age 11. We love watching gymnastics too, but there aren't any clubs close to where we live.

[sheplaysinthechalk]

interesting. i think that the club owners are under the impression that the top 3 are mandated. I know that last year the o's received a list of children who were mandated that came from...Patty? If she isn't mandated, I think it's wonderful. If she is, it's fine. I'm not really all for her getting into the subnovice category - which is a very difficult category to do well in - especially as a 4 yr old. If you were there, i'm sure you can attest to that. I'm really thinking we may only do two or three tumble meets next year. It's not really that big a deal either way (meaning what level she's competing.) Like i said earlier in the post, the only reason we got into tumbling in the first place is that dd wanted to "go to the trophy store." I sort of feel like, now she has like eight trophies and a few medals - she got what she wanted (though she worked for it) and now i think we're gonna be done with it for a while...until she can compete with children her age.