Proposed USAG Junior Olympic men's routines

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZJsMom Can some one explain the theory behind the vault progression in the boys program?

I would love to hear an explanation as well, honestly. While I understand that the idea is to teach kids how to properly hit a springboard, I really think the girls' system is FAR superior to the boys in teaching a good handspring vault.

A straight jump is a dumb vault, because it requires you to HIT THE BOARD INCORRECTLY. If you do a good hurdle followed by a good punch on the board, you rotate. It's as simple as that.

A front tuck is a dumb vault, because it's only useful if we assume it's being done absolutely perfectly. Yes, you can hit a springboard properly and then do a front tuck onto a mat. But in training kids to do the skill, what far more often occurs is that they drop their chests in order to flip faster (ie they hit the board incorrectly.) It also doesn't do anything to teach heel drive.

With my guys, I don't even bother working their competition vaults except the one or two practices before a meet. They work handstand flatbacks (like L4 girls), front layouts, and, for those who are ready, handsprings over the table.

[blantonnick]

I think at such an early level perhaps the thinking is not to touch on heel drive at all but rather to encourage a strong run with long strides, a long hurdle onto the springboard, correct foot placement on the springboard and a strong punch from the springboard....
I have stated this before and would like to emphasise it again:
I grew up in the USA program, did JO's from beginning to Level 1 (the equivalent to Level 10 now) and understand the national coaching staff's reasoning behind the progression they set for the junior program. They would never initiate a drill, skill, or progression that would jeapordize or inhibit the progress of their national program. The routines that they establish are in the best interest of the basic progression of beginning level gymnastics and are not 'dumb' as stated....

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I have outlined why I dissagree with some of these progressions, and until I hear a better reason than "trust them, they know what they're doing," I will continue to dissagree.

What I would really like to see is an explanation behind the routines, rather than just the routines themselves.

[ZJsMom]

I'm not ready to opine that the boys vaulting progressions are "dumb". But I don't see why the progressions are above question and we should just assume the JO progressions are set up in the best interest of the national program. The reason I asked the question is because the girls program and the boys program take totally different approaches to developing vault. Obviously, both are intended to be in the best interest of the national program and develop strong vaulters, but why shouldn't we ask if one is better than the other, or why they're using different approaches?

[BlairBob]

Geoffrey, if you ever saw the preliminary routines from the last quaddrenium; it went front tuck, front layout, and front handspring in levels 4, 5, and 6. I'd much prefer these as I'll agree straight jump is pretty hokey.

However, if they can yet even do a nice straight jump not letting their torso arch as they tend to do, there is no way we can get them to punch and get a front handspring out of it.

I would argue I could get many level 5 boys to vault on a table with ease. I could easily take all my level 5's ( they are around 9 or 10 though ). When I had little level 5's, I could easily have any of them go over a low table as well.

The complaint I heard from many of those on the committee is that the level 4 vault just teaches them to lean over the board and ya' just get some divey thing into a handstand.

I think they took down the difficulty, dumbing it down, to just make it easier. USA gymnastics knows that MAG needs more numbers just to keep on surviving. I'm wary because I hear AAU has L3 routines for boys and I think L4 is easy enough. However, L4 is supposed to be a rec level but very few compete it as and all parents at that level are screaming bloody murder when their little guys aren't scoring 52's, medaling, etc.

L4 are enough of a chore coaching mentally, I can only imagine L3 as a coaching nightmare. Of course, they would probably be coming in half the time, and we could compete the boys even sooner into gym versus L4 for boy's is between 6months and a year ( and about 2 to 3 years for younger girls, 1 to 2 for older girls ). From what I've gathered, compulsory routines in the 90's were far more difficult for their respective class levels to what they are on now. This is from coaches who used to compete then or ex gymnasts who can vaguely remember their old compulsory routines.

There are a lot of back hip circles competed in level 4 that are pretty crummy and still in level 5. I laugh when I hear all this hoopla about doing a free hip with just daylight at that level when their back hip is less than stellar. Gain bonus and lose execution.

Geoffrey, I imagine if we went to the training camps coming up in June or so, we'd find out why the routines have these skills, their progressions and what they are trying to foresee. I'd like to go but don't know if I'll have the money and time and I'm not sure I could get it paid for by the Booster Club or owners. Especially at my old gym that only had a half dozen boys and this new one that has yet to have a boy's team but there is clammer for me to start one.

Would you rather see a good dive roll with hecht action at level 4? Basically just like the ideal dive roll we see in the L5 JO WAG? Thinking about the time into gymnastics, I'm just not sure it's feasible.

I will sound biased here, but I am sure I could take any level 5 boy I've had and vault them just as well compared to a girl of their level and age. Well, 90%. Given though, typically the girls have been in gymnastics longer with more training hours than the boys. I've never had a boy have head problems going over the table. Except me, but I really liked the old horse for some reason. Hah. Most of the problem is getting them to run hard enough and hit the board with that power. With the boy's it's more about controlling and being efficient with that power. Some of the little level 5 guys at 7 year old were what I call train wreck runners. I'm just expecting them to trip up their form was so awkward.

I would also argue that the MAG National committee still wants to train a really good board punch because handspring front and so forth are still viable vaults for the guys while it's very rare for the gals. They are mostly training yurchenko, and maybe tsuk and never hoping for big vaults off a handspring alone with multiple saltos. Just a possibility.

Perhaps front tuck salto is there simply because we knows boys love to flip. They love it from day 1 into the pit and love doing front tucks. Possibly more fun than vaulting off the table and definitely more so than a mat stack. Big whoopeety do. Fun needs to be a big factor for those lower levels. In that regard, I dislike the straight jump vault. I'd rather see handstand to stacked mats, however most lil guys are fairly poor at punching a board and understanding the mechanics of it.

ZJsMom, I really doubt there is much of interaction or coordination of the WAG and MAG national committees. I doubt they see eye to eye, but evaluate and judge what each other is doing. About the only ones who probably do so are those that coach in both which is probably a minority in men's programs big enough that demand not sharing a coach who also coaches in the women's. I'm a product of a journeylevel coach that has coached actively in both concurrently the past some years.

In a way, I see L4 boy's as a sort of basic training to get into L5 for when I really consider them trainable further in gymnastics that will get on to higher levels. It is as much training them mentally as well as physical preparation for L5 which I really enjoy training. Perhaps because I see L5 as a competitive level and Level 4 as a rec level still. Perhaps, because I am getting boys into L4 and trying to get them and their parents trained for a future in competitive gymnastics. In some ways, I'm treating the L4's somewhat to how little boys sign up for a sport and compete in 1 month ( in this case, 6 months to a year ).