MAG Another thread about hours

[gracyomalley]

curious.

Parents and coaches of upper level boys, what would be minimum safe hours for training (say double backs on floor, laid out tsuks, release moves on high and p bars, etc)?

What would be optimal? Primarily for boys 12-16. At what level would you consider making a kid leave the sport for safety reasons?


Gym has cut back to maximum 14 hours, and some kids have scheduling conflicts with some of the offered hours that can't be changed at this late date in school year. Some 8-10s can only attend max 11 hours a week. Coaching is inexperienced but trying hard. No other boys programs within 150 miles.

Not blaming the gym. Sure they are doing their best. Kids are not expected to do college gym but are solid gymnasts, with state and regional placements. The kids want to do the 20 hours a week the girls get, with the exception of one level 10.

 

[Sasha]

Only a parent here, but our level 8-10's go 15 hours per week. The group isn't currently large, though, and they seem to get a lot done.

We don't have any elites.

 

[profmom]

Our guys max out at around 20 hours per week. I think in every hours question, you also have to ask how they are using the time. Our guys aren't super efficient. However, I find it hard to imagine training competitive L9s and L10s in 11 hours a week unless they are doing all of their conditioning outside of the gym.

Would it be possible to train with the girls at all? Even if just for warmups and conditioning? Floor and vault aren't identical, but one could imagine getting stuff done in a mixed boys/girls rotation on either of those events.

 

[gracyomalley]

We are proposing multiple options to the owner, including the 7-10 boys (and maybe a couple almost 7s) working with the girls a bit....certainly efficient use of time is key, and they have smaller work groups (5-8) then the girls, but they can't always get to their equipment due to the large girls team. They get plenty of time on pommel and reasonable amounts on pbars. Very little time on floor and vault due to the girls. Everyone practices exactly the same time, just not everyone on same days, I think to save on coaching. No weekend practices.

It's hard because they had a very experienced traditional coach for 6 months, then back to the less experienced one so they are really scrambling to figure out routines, requirements, and the training is very different- they spent the summer doing fundamental work and strength and stuff building to level 10 stuff, not focused on "the next level". (For instance DS learned 3 different vaults this summer). Now they have to figure comp stuff out in fewer hours and a coach who still has to look everything up in the book.

I just don't want them hurt, and it was one thing when my kid fell on mushroom circles, a very different thing with this kind of stuff. I want him to stay strong enough....

 

[ZJsMom]

11 hours may not be enough for level 10. I know one of ds's friends was trying to do 12 hours a week last year and ended up with a serious injury. Our coach kind of said he was trying to do harder skills than were reasonable on three days a week.

 

[Aussie_coach]

There is no magic number, many factors will come into play to determine the ideal minimum at this level.

- Natural ability of the boys, and their natural level of strength and flexibility
- work ethic of the boys
- a coaches ability
- how well used the training time is
- how many boys are in the class
- the amount of equipment available

And so on.

An outstanding coach with a good group of boys, who uses time well can do it safely in 11 hours. But how competitive they are will also depend of the type of hours other gyms are doing.

 

[skschlag]

Our optionals do 17.5 hours a week, sometimes more. Some only do 14...as they choose not to come one day a week. I think if practices are efficient, then it can be done, but this does not sound like the case with your gym.

 

[gracyomalley]

The upper level boys are very hard working (when directed), and mine in particular is trying to be a leader (he's your typical first born serious type), and working to continue the level of training/conditioning he was taught this summer.

Our L10 is extremely talented but not driven at all anymore; this is likely his last year without more experienced guidance to help him find his spark - which as a mom of a burnt out DD, I know is hard for his parents, but may turn out the best for him. The 2 8s are talented but not brilliant, and there is a very talented 10 year old L7 who was training with them but is now back with the younger group mostly. Practices have lost a lot of their efficiency and conditioning is much easier than they did all summer (this is per said perfectionistic 15 year old) - there just seems no long term plan in place (OK there IS no long term plan in place except "I don't want to close the boys program and am working on finding a (cheap) experienced coach"). I realize this may just be a reality of life....

Honestly, the situation is fine for the majority of the boys as they are preadolescent, level 4-6. The talented ones will pick stuff up, the hard working ones will slowly gain, and they do seem to have fun, which of course at that point is THE point....

Older DS has no routines yet other than pommel and vault (although they aren't vaulting much right now, so I don't know if he's gotten to try to land his laid out Tsuk at all...I THINK he can land a basic tucked Tsuk, but he spent some time trying to master his FHS-FT first, then traded that for the safer landing on the Tsuk, and was doing it piked/laid out all summer in the pit...) If I take what he tells me at face value (I don't watch practice really much at all - I think I've been in the gym 10 minutes the last 3 months). ALL HE'S DOING ON FLOOR RIGHT NOW IS TRYING TO GET HIS DOUBLE BACK LANDED....which I know is exciting, but I figure there may be more he should be working? (he did mention a split to press Japanese handstand and he sort of has FLO FLO half...he's twist challenged...also a side somi?) I mentionned on another thread that his HB looks like "a whole mess of giants and a flyaway..." I realize there are some transitional skills from front to back, I think a FH to HS start, and he wants the flyaway to double back, but my understanding is he's just throwing stuff together right now...Pbars and rings are equally vague...and with fewer hours and less direction, he's worried he won't get the skills he still needs in time.

I know all this because the young coach asked them to write out what they wanted their routines to be and we had to watch a bunch of L8 routines, try to figure out requirements without the book - which apparently the gym has lost - and turn it in. DS is severely dyslexic and dysgraphic, so he had me do the writing (and try to help spell). He competed L7 after L5 and didn't really have his HB until regionals...and had a great time, placed frequently on other events (and all around cuz he's so old....), so although he is a perfectionist, he also usually has a good attitude about doing his best and enjoying the process.

I think he got excited about really doing well this summer, with such good coaching, and now doesn't want to compete if he can't live up to the standards he was shooting for. I also know that a lot of the stuff he's working on could be saved for L9 and up, but he is already a freshman in high school and with the age change would be considered a 17 year old next year for JO....and really, he's mentionned to me that with the gym not willing/able to hang on to the coach who really could take the boys far, he's not sure he should put the time into gym that it takes to keep competing at this level. He really needs the 5 days a week both because he has been moving so fast there is lots for him to learn, and because with school and his music, he needs to be able to leave early occaisionally, miss a day occaisionally, etc in order to do well with those things, which will matter in the long run...whereas his double back will not.

There will be no college gymnastics for this team without dedicated, experienced coaching...there's one boy who did future stars this year (trained all spring and summer with the experienced coach) whose parents are very good at negotiating to get him what he needs (NOT A CRITICISM), but the other talented kids in the lower levels are a bit stuck. That's ok as long as everyone realizes and admits it, IMHO...

It does sound like there are teams that make low hours work for boys - although it clearly is not ideal. NO one responded that it was terribly unsafe to do - which you often hear at upper levels for girls, so that makes me feel better. DS has had many aches and pains, a sprained knee, wrist pain, some shin and forearm splints, a strained calf muscle, and terrible rips, but thankfully no serious gym injuries...if he gets injured it better not be his hands/wrists/arms - as he has serious music stuff to compete this year LOL! (yes, that's a joke - even his violin teacher says he shouldn't quit gym just yet for music - but we do hide his bloody palms and popping wrists from her).

 

[profmom]

So he's competing L8 this year? Does he know about group requirements and can he identify the skills in each routine that will fulfill requirements? Those are the kinds of things DS is discussing with his coach now.

Depending on when the first meet is, it may not be too worrisome that he doesn't have routines figured out yet. Our guys compete at their first meet in early December, and routine parts (as opposed to just skills) are just starting to come together now. I think the L8s mostly have both aspirational and go-to dismounts on most if not all events right now. DS knows most of the skills he wants in his floor, rings, pbars, and hi bar routine -- the only one he hasn't really figured out is pommels. He's still working primarily on FS stuff, but sometimes I am seeing things from him and his optional and aspiring optional teammates that look like tentative first and last halfs or routines.

 

[gracyomalley]

Yep 8 this year. Nope, not sure of the official group requirements - we found FIG skills values and groupings on line, but couldn't figure out anywhere what the JO level 8 requirements are. I think the coach has somewhat of an idea, as he coached last comp. season with a L8 and a L9....but that was his first year ever. I know DS has talked to him about floor at least - that's why they are thinking the side somi or arabian for side element, and FLOFLO-half for front, ROBHS double back for back tumbling; I'm nor sure he knows all the non-tumbling requirements...He made up a pommel routine with the experienced coach prior to his being let go, and has a few skills he'd like to add to it, but its "there" at a basic level. I think his dismounts are planned to be double back on rings, pbars and high bar (I could be wrong...I know he's training that on pbars...). Vault will be "fine" ....but could be AWESOME if he had the time to get that layout landing on his Tsuk consistent....

He only gets about 7 hours with the coach a week right now....but his friend did L8 last year and probably knows basically what's required. They are bringing in a visiting coach for a weekend, but not only do we have to pay a boat load if we wish to participate, (on top of paying the same tuition we paid for the experienced coach on a monthly basis), but its right in the middle of midterms and a symphony - he already had planned on weekday evenings being given to gym - and can't give that whole weekend at this time. Not sure how much it would help anyway (he thinks its would be useless, I don't know - might be helpful just in routine construction....)

It will be fine - if he biffs everything, that's ok as long as he doesn't get hurt badly....

 

[profmom]

Three of the four group skills plus a dismount is all he needs. He should be good for floor! I haven't seen that many L8 routines, but of those I've seen, I really have not seen boys competing DBs or that front pass. On pbars, what DS's coach is doing with DS is training the DB dismount, but also training a 1/2 or full, since he says having the DB is one thing and having it at the end of a taxing routine is quite another. DB on rings is pretty common, but a lot of L8 guys are also still doing layouts to get off the high bar. It sounds like your son is setting up well in terms of skills for a quick transition upward.

 

[gracyomalley]

I think that was the plan, which is part of the confusion now as he was training for l9-10 for the future this summer more than thinking about l8.

The floor routines we have seen on you tube and in comp seem "easy" to him , other than the fact that he can't do a full, ThAts why I wish he wasn't so hung up on landing that double back. He's a very strong floor worker/tumbler if twists are put aside.

High bar may end up a flail like last year...I'm pretty sure he could do the double back dismount as easily as land the layout well. Lol

My kids seem high bar challenged in general. The younger boy is scared of heights, my DD never learned to tap her giants properly consistently, and this one has so much power he flings through stuff with limited control...they all look much better closer to the ground!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

upper level past 14 years old should be up near 18 hours a week and then some.

 

[gracyomalley]

Gym owner figured out a way to get the boys more gym time!

DS feels better and I will stop worrying and go back to drop off and pick up...

 

[LilHawkMom]

My son (first year level 9) only trains 15 hrs (3 hrs x 5 days a week). I know compared to other future stars boys we have met they do more, around 20. Hopefully my son can make his 15 hrs work since I don't think his coach will add more.