Getting height in a tumbling pass

[Muddlethru]

How does one improve the height of a tumbling pass, say front hs, front hs, back tuck or front hs, front hs, layout. I've seen the real good gymnast get real height on the last tumbling skill. Any drills you can suggest or technique. I've heard landing straight leg on the second front hs and then pushing off with your toes. Is that correct? How about sticking the layout or back tuck? Anymore suggestions? Thanks

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well, you'll never get good height if you perform front handspring>front handspring>back tuck or layout. so then, i don't want to assume i've interpreted something incorrectly.

 

[Coacharella]

I was thinking those sounded like some funky passes mysef

 

[Muddlethru]

LOL!!

I am a mom and my DD has been doing gymnastics for under 3years. I still can't tell the difference between front and back tucks, front and back giants, or front HS step outs and a front walkover, front layouts, back layouts . . . If I recall my DD correcting me one time, there are no front layouts? I just wanted to get this question in and tried to fake my way into naming my DD's tumbling passes. Thought it sounded good. I guess they were not right. I'll have to run my made up tumbling passes through my DD and just see what kind of reaction I get. She'll probably look at me and shake her head.

Anyway, I took a look at my DD's Level 7 floor routine and I THINK her 1st tumbling pass is a round off back handspring back layout. And the scond one is a front hs front pike. She also does a round off straddle jump. Do these sound right? My directions might be off. I can't tell if it is front or back. She goes so fast for my untrained eyes. So whTever sounds right to you.

So what are tricks to getting GREAT height?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

practice my dear, practice.

 

[Muddlethru]

practice my dear, practice.

I understand the practice part. But at meets, I see just a handful of girls getting those enormous heights. They can't be just practicing more than the others. Some girls look like they are jumping two stories high. Can that be taught or is it a talent that can't be taught? If it can be taught, what is it that gymnasts must temember to do when doing a tumblng pass to get height?

This may be too ignorant a question. But I was just wondering.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

no such thing as an ignorant question.

if you are generally referring to kids in the same age group it has to do with muscle twitch.

when you get up in the senior ranks it has to do with the ability of the athletes strength and power and how those will translate when in concert with that muscle twitch.

unfortunately, the muscle twitch you are born with can not be coached. it is more a biology than a talent.

overall, precise technique can make for very good tumblers. when precise technique is combined in concert with power, strength and fast muscle twitch? well, you have it all!

 

[Sparky]

Sorry to barge in here, but dunno, you have piqued my curiousity - can you explain "fast muscle twitch"? I am curioius as to how this would be determined?

Thanks!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

okay...here goes.

skeletal muscles consist of bundles of individual muscle fibers called myocytes. each myocyte contains many myofibrils which are hairlike strands of proteins called actin and myosin which hold on to one another and pull. this is what shortens a muscle and causes a muscle contraction. without the process you have no 'twitch' at all.

there are 2 types generally speaking. slow twitch type 1 and fast twitch type 2 muscle fibers. and these muscle fibers can be further categorized as type 2a and type 2b. and each fiber type has its own unique ability to contract in certain ways. muscles have a genetically determined combination of fast and slow fibers both. the average would be 50/50 slow and fast in most muscles that are used when we move.

slow twitch muscles are super efficient at using oxygen to create more 'fuel' known as ATP. ATP is adenosine triphosphate which is a major source of energy for cellular reactions that occur in muscle tissue. kinda like those "rods" that sit in a nuclear reactor. the more ATP that is produced means the longer a person can go with extended muscle contractions over a long period of time before fatigue sets in. this describes your typical marathon runner or marathon cyclist.

fast twitch muscles are more efficient producing short bursts of strength and speed because fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to produce fuel. and this metabolic process will find the muscle fatigue more quickly. this describes the sprinter, a top tiered gymnast and Michael Jordan. Larry Bird and Michael Jordan both had huge vertical jumps. and even though Larry Bird was taller, Michael Jordan could get to a measurement peak faster than Bird. And because Jordan was so strong he could jump higher also. but thru their entire career Bird was more minutes on the court and Jordan took more breaks. fast twitch muscle fibers will generally create the same amount of force in a muscle contraction as that of slow muscle fiber but get their name due to the ability to fire more rapidly.

type 2a fibers are a combination of both. but type 2b fibers are the gladiator fibers to end all. these fibers excel at producing the fast and powerful bursts of unbridled speed that you see in certain athletes in certain sports that are more likely the result of preordained genetic make up. if you put Bird and Jordan on the 100 meter dash who do you think will win? but what if you put them both in a 5K? Jordan wins the sprint and Bird wins the marathon...both hands down. it's biology.

finally, you ask how this would be determined. medically speaking there are tests and measurement comparisons and muscle biopsies for just about everything. but for us? you'll know it when you see it. the double back on floor that looks labored and slow yet still has a deductionless outcome vs. the opposite of labored and slow with a deductionless outcome but wins by .025. they just look different...understand? or the famous 2 step slam dunk 2 feet above the rim performed by Jordan and others biologically similar compared with the 4 step push thru the defense running in sand like labored movement of Bird to accomplish the same task only 1 foot above the rim and whose play action took 3 times longer on the clock.

ahhhhh...the wonder of human biology.

 

[Billy]

Okay, so is a gymnast who doesn't have the fast twitch muscles doomed never to excel in the sport? Or are there ways to train with and around this "limitation?" Can be strong and flexible help overcome lack of fast twitch?

 

[Northstar2400]

at our gym we tend to just practice setting drills. like if we are on tramp we have this red star hanging from the ceiling and before we can tuch or do a layout you look at the star and pull your hands up and it helps to go up higher. another thing is to make sure you arnt throwingyour head back as it limits you on height to. I was going through thi same thing and it takes a lot of quick second thinking to get it right but after awhile you start figuring it out. what helps me is thinking suck in go up arms up flip. its alot but idk it just seemedto help e and my my floor passes better.
Hope this helps!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Okay, so is a gymnast who doesn't have the fast twitch muscles doomed never to excel in the sport? Or are there ways to train with and around this "limitation?" Can be strong and flexible help overcome lack of fast twitch?

no shawn, one is not doomed. but one may be limited to what skills they acquire over time due to their twitch. a lot of what a gymnast performs has to do with how 'fast' they can translate their power and strength to move their body weight from one point to another in space. this can affect all kinds of skills in our sport.

take the case of a double lay out on floor. flexibility is not a requirement to perform this skill. but power and strength are [SWR-strength to weight ratio] and then how 'fast' that power and strength can be transferred to the time it takes for that body to leave the floor. if you can't move 'it' fast enough then you can't do it. understand? that's why i stated the "top tiered" gymnasts. and even the slow ones at this level are faster than normal.

hopefully by buddy will pipe in here at some point. a wealth of knowledge i'll tell you.

 

[ek2]

Interesting information Dunno.
So, can you tell as a coach, by looking at someone tumbling whether "slower" tumbling is due to lack of fast twitch or poor technique?
Also, can a gymnast, say have fast twitch fibers in their upper body but slow twitch in their lower body? For instance, my dd tumbles a little slow, although it has picked up considerably and has had a hard time getting a standing back. But is explosive at vaulting... fast runner and quick off the table.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, you can tell by looking at the athlete. the rest of what you posted i would have to watch on video to see exactly what is you're seeing. where these fibers are distributed, and in most 50/50, is not an upper or lower more of one than the other phenomena. so my answer would be no to that one. although i reserve the right to be wrong unless the Doc on this site brings forward info/studies i'm not aware of.)

of course, it would be additionally helpful if my buddy would chime in on this one. i know he's here and i'm just waiting for him to post up.

i'm happy to report that i DON"T know everything! my buddy will be jumping on here shortly to give you the rest of what i was not aware of.

 

[gymgurl]

I'm impressed with your knowledge, we had a huge discussion in PE (Theory) about this and although i knew a lot on this topic (relatively, for a high school girl) but your knowledge has just improve mine and i just want to say how much i love your imput to this board! it is really great having someone of your caliber and experience on the board!

Anyway I have always wondered if there is a definitive test for this and can it put you at a significant disadvantage? does one type show more flexibility than the other??

 

[Deleted member D3987]

thank you gymgirl. please look at my other post under 'questions and answers' and under 'splits'. if it doesn't answer your question just post up another.

 

[CoachGoofy]

This is so interesting, & confirms some of the stuff about muscle twitch that I thought I knew but didn't remember learning.

It also convinces me, more, that one of my T&Ters is out of the box...she's a rubber kid and the most naturally explosive tumbler I've ever met. There are always exceptions, I guess.