WAG Question on Shoulder flexibility

[Amusibus]

My little 7 year old is in a low level competitive program at 2x/week for 4 hrs each. She has a really hard time with getting her arms into full overhead flexion (ie, up and back, the "ta-da" position). When she tries they don't go back all the way so she compensates by arching her lower back. This lack of mobility has hindered her with her backbend and backwalkover. The rest of her is loose and flexible like a wet noodle. My question is, do you coaches have any experience/advice with kids like this? Do parents have a kid like this, and did it hinder their gymnastics or did it eventually get resolved? It's not a problem with shoulder flexibility in general, because when they do that arms behind you snd try to lay down stretch, she is almost all the way to the floor with fingers touching. It's the opposite direction that is the problem. And it's not a new problem, she's always been this way. But I think her current group stretches less than the development group she was in last year.

Incidentally, her knee injury is 95% better after PT and she's back to practice and competitions with a few modifications. Yay!

 

[iwannacoach]

This......

because when they do that arms behind you snd try to lay down stretch, she is almost all the way to the floor with fingers touching.

Has nothing to do with this in the context used.....

She has a really hard time with getting her arms into full overhead flexion (ie, up and back, the "ta-da" position). When she tries they don't go back all the way so she compensates by arching her lower back.

There are kids with genetics that limit the amount of improvement to be gained with flexibility work. It still makes sense to work on it, and even more sensible would be getting to the right Physical Therapist or doctor for an evaluation to see if it is a genetic based problem.

 

[Amusibus]

I think what you mean by genetics is a shoulder girdle with slightly different anatomy than average which congenitally limits flexibility in a certain range of motion...right? Obviously not a whole-body kind of thing as flexibility is excellent everywhere else. She still has 5 weeks of PT for her knee, so I'll ask the therapist tomorrow. So are you saying, in your experience, there's little to be done about it, that with your kids who had this they were always like this? I don't see how you could get very far in gymnastics with this problem.

 

[BlairBob]

No, you can't. She can probably still do okay in compulsory and further if she is VERY strong or explosive.

Wall slides, cuban press, and stall bar cat/pike stretch. You can try some SMR but at that age I would stick to massage rather than foam rollers and lacrosse balls or contraptions. Maybe look into trigger points.

There are supposedly three different shapes to a shoulder girdle according to Eric Cressey, a well known fitness trainer specializing in pitchers. Probably impossible to tell without xrays though and I wouldnt bother for a 7yo rec kid.

 

[Amusibus]

She's not rec.

 

[Amusibus]

What is SMR?

I have a chiropractic doctor friend who is excellent with active release technique, thinking of bringing her to him for eval even though he's 1 hr drive from me.

 

[Amusibus]

And Bob I am aware of the 3 different shapes of the acromion. My question to you all here was more of an experience question. Meaning
-have you seen this
-is it fixable
-is it compatible with gymnastics

Thanks

 

[iwannacoach]

It's certainly not a rarity.......

Kids with the above just can't get there. It would be similar to asking someone to reach up and then back to a 25 degree angle past vertical. I suppose there's a bell curve to be seen when lumping only these kids (shoulder girdle problems) in a group arranged from most able to compensate to least able to compensate by adding more stretching.

There's a little less meat on the bone for kids with poor shoulder range of motion and, to make matters more unfair, there's an increased likelihood of overuse injury to wrists, elbows, and lower back.

Sorry to add a teensy bit more stress to the issue, but have the PT evaluate her cervical vertabrae for anything unusual. I've only seen one case of a child who had a cvert abnormality that presented as a shoulder girdle problem. Rare, but you should have it checked out.

 

[Gymsanity]

Don't stress, it is doable. Might take some extra work, but for a gymnast, what's new! Not saying she will be doing eagle giants anytime soon, but certainly good enough for a great gymnastic career. I've had girls that looked like they were doing the Nazi salute when I told them to put their arms by their ears, and now they look great! Talk to her coach about it, but here is what I've done to fix it. I have all my girls do their bridges with their feet on a raised surface (usually an 8" mat, higher if their shoulders are worse). Then have them keep their lower backs flat (that's the secret), straight arms, and push over their shoulders so that they feel the stretch in their arm pits and shoulder girdle. There should be no stress or strain anywhere in their lower to mid backs, it's all in the upper part of their backs and shoulders. If her coach gives her the OK, she can work her flexibility at home as well, since there usually isn't enough time at gym to fix a situation like that that needs a little extra TLC. Good luck and don't worry.

 

[Amusibus]

Gymsanity... you must be a woman! Thanks for the reassurance, needed that. My husband and I are always talking about this - I ***** to him about some random thing, then he starts telling me ways to fix it. I'm like, hug me first and say everything's going to be ok. Then we can talk fixing. Men and women are so different! But I digress. Will try that stretch and talk to her PT tomorrow. Thanks

 

[Amusibus]

iwc, what is the cervical anomaly you're talking about? As if this kid needs more health problems! I won't bore you with the list but suffice to say she has enough unusual medical issues for 10 kids.

 

[BlairBob]

I'm a guy, I ain't got time to hug!

Gotta get to work and get it done.

Well I'm more of in competitive training mode myself these days when I'm not coaching weightlifting and then, even with the gals it's correct and work. Don't have time to softshoe it in an hour class.

I saw low level comp and 4 hours which is basically competitive rec. 4 hrs is often what would have been L3.

 

[BlairBob]

Active release is good stuff if you can get access to it.

I'd just keep at it with the elevated bridges and stall bar cat/pike stretching besides any shoulder mobility you can do.

 

[iwannacoach]

iwc, what is the cervical anomaly you're talking about? As if this kid needs more health problems! I won't bore you with the list but suffice to say she has enough unusual medical issues for 10 kids.

It was over 30 years ago so forgive me for being vague. I think the kid went to the ortho for upper back pain in the area of T3 or T4. The ortho saw some things during her exam that required xray work. The end dx was incomplete growth of her cverts from C7 to C1 with the the anomaly worsening gradually from C7 to C1. Where I gotta plead vague-ness is how the growth was incomplete. I think in addition to the stunted length of her vertabrae, there was an issue about forming the closed space for her spinal cord.

She came out the other side of all this in pretty good order considering the original Dx, but gymnastics was out of the question....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

And Bob I am aware of the 3 different shapes of the acromion. My question to you all here was more of an experience question. Meaning
-have you seen this
-is it fixable
-is it compatible with gymnastics

Thanks

yes. many times.

no.

yes. she may never do L-grip but gymnastics has lots of stuff for all kids to do and learn and even when they physical deficiencies. that's 1 of the beauties of gymnastics.

 

[Amusibus]

Dunno I intend to bring her to Mark Jaffe, I remember you know him, and he is excellent in ART and with athletes in general.

It's funny, last couple years the devo coaches kept telling me they picked her for natural strength and flexibility, and her "perfect gymnastics body". Not so perfect after all. Seeing PT later today.

 

[gymdog]

Personally I have very little mobility in the position you describe, but I'm very able to force my shoulders over my hands in a bridge position. Certainly I've seen more flexible bridges but it doesn't hinder me from doing anything either. Because of the resistance of my muscle in my shoulders I need a fair amount of force to open them. Just lifting and pushing back I encounter a lot of resistance. The worst thing should be increased injury but I guess I'm just luckily because I don't have any back and shoulder problems. I do have very bad wrist problems which is probably not coincidental.

I don't think I had this when I was a kid or I don't remember. I feel the issue with my shoulders was likely caused by muscle development that limited mobility to some extent.

 

[Kiwi]

I've had girls that looked like they were doing the Nazi salute when I told them to put their arms by their ears, and now they look great!

LOL! This was my DD! It has taken a few years for her to be able to get her arms actually by her ears - you can see it especially on the beam, whether they make a straight line from fingers to feet. So, yes, it can improve somewhat. She still struggles with flexibility and I don't believe she will get all the way to step 10 but that is no reason for her to give up now. Neuromuscular therapy has helped her a lot. One thing the NMT has highlighted - flexibility restrictions are not always where they seem. For example, tight pecs can limit how far you can open your shoulders upwards and outwards, so you could try some pec stretching, and massage in the pec area.

 

[Amusibus]

Update: Saw the PT today. She feels it is a soft tissue issue rather than a bony limitation. She has tight pectoralis minor muscles, but also lack of scapular rotation due to imbalance of muscles. She gave us stretches for the tight stuff and exercises for the weak stuff. The weak areas are lower trapezius and lat, and serratus anterior (sorry too technical!!). Basically wall push ups and "hollow body" type stuff for the shoulder/ chest area to strengthen and stabilize. Interestingly she felt it is not a ligamentous issue as she has generalized laxity of the ligaments all over her body.

Bottom line, there's hope

 

[Gymsanity]

Lots of big fancy words to say that with some dedication and hard work she is good to go. Happy for your good news.