MAG Question re.. Huge drop in performance

[Ceetee]

my 9 yo had an excellent level 5 year.. AA up around 64, first place AA at major invitationals and states, state team member. He is now competing level 6 and he looks awful.. Like a different gymnast. Its not just lack of bonuses.. We didnt expect him to go in with all the bonues, but basic stuff. Like his knees are no longer straight, his swings look bad, everything is messy... Hasn't scored higher than a 54 this year. Hasnt placed AA and only once in evenets. Its hard to imagine things could change so drastically from April to now. He has had a coaching change and we are teying not to pin things on that, but... Has anyone else seen such a big drop off between seasons?
We will speak to his coach, but he is really down and we can see why. We look at last year videos vs this and it is really dramatic.

 

[Goldmedalgirl]

I understand, I skipped a level last year and went from being a solid 37.00 -38.00. Scorer to being solid 35.00. I am in woman's gymnastics though.

 

[skschlag]

It happens, and it is tough. The skills get harder and the form his away. Is he growing? That can cause all kinds of form issues. Odds are he is just so focused on the skill that he can't focus on the details yet. It should improve as the season goes on

 

[Ceetee]

That is what I was thinking ( and hoping) but we also got worried when we tracked the cohort of kids that he has always in the ballpark with.. They are having their share of growing pains score wise, but he seems to be the only one who has dropped so much.. Like 10 points each meet. I hope we see an upswing ( no pun intended) because he doesnt have any good event as of now.

 

[profmom]

I'd second the growing theory. Right now my guy, who had a standout year in his second year of L5 and a solid year last year at L6, is having something of a harder time getting new skills and cleaning them up. His coach says that this frequently happens with boys and the only solution is more strength work and patience. Hopefully the coaches are still encouraging him to work on form. I swear DS probably hears his coach yelling at him to stay tight in his sleep!

 

[sce]

A growth spurt can definitely contribute to that. As well, the leap from 5 to 6 is a big one. IS the new coach emphasizing form corrections in practice? Is your ds aware of the issues with his form?

 

[Ceetee]

He is aware of the issues and is really down about it. He feels like the new coaching situation is not making form a priority, but it is easy to blame the coaching. I don't want to rush to that, but I do wonder. When I go to practice it does seem less time is being spent on form.
I follow the top kids that he has come up with over the years. His score drop is extreme. The rest of them have stayed within top 10. He has completely dropped out of it.
Is this where the boys start to separate out? Maybe he just doesnt have what you need to support the form with higher level skills? He definitely has a ways to go to be getting all the level 6 bonuses.. He is doing pretty basic level 6 high bars, p bar routines, but even though they are basic they are a mess. And the basic level 6 routines don't look that much more difficult than the full bonus level 5 routines he was doing.

 

[Sasha]

Is strength an issue?

I do see lack of strength-to-weight holding some of our L6's back from keeping up with the pace they kept in L4 and L5. The physically stronger (for their weight) kids are taking off faster.... And not being strong enough causes struggling to keep your form, for sure...

 

[skschlag]

My ds has bounced all around the places...from bottom 1/4 to top 1/4 to top 5, to middle of the pack, to last, and back again. It can be lots of things...growing, judging, age group differences. And kids grow at different rates, and they learn at different rates. As hard as it is, patience will be key as he gets through this.

 

[Ceetee]

He is very strong. But he is also one of the denser kids, so maybe his growth is outpacing his strength right now.

 

[Sasha]

If he's on the more physically 'mature' side for his age - taller, thicker torso, thicker legs/hips, less 'slight' looking, I'm guessing he's working harder to keep pace with strength-to-weight than some of his daintier peers. Also if his limbs grew a lot this past year, controlling longer limbs is definitely a new challenge.

Keep heart, though, that earlier maturity will start to serve him well into his early teens when the daintier peers start to struggle with upper body strength for upper optionals...

Whether or not any of that is the case for him, it's good you plan to check in with coach and just see what coach's perspective is on what he needs right now, and what, if anything, is holding him back.

Edited to Add: Not to imply that the 'daintier' peers aren't also very muscled and strong, but just are more slight in build with less weight overall to manipulate.

 

[profmom]

LOL, if you looked at one of DS's pbars routines from the end of last season alongside the one he did yesterday, you'd swear it was a different kid, and not in a good direction. How many meets has he had this year? What's been happening -- is it falls/mistakes or is it all about form and poor execution of the elements he has? For instance, getting that uprise on rings to look good can take some time. Moy on pbars can be scary and look ugly while they are in the process of getting comfortable with it. Scissors on PH is one of the last skills a lot of guys get.

 

[Ceetee]

He isn't falling or making mistakes...It is all in form. He looks bad, I hate to say it, but it is true. everything looks bad. maybe the learning of the bonuses is taking all the energy away from the form. I think I am projecting some guilt about the coaching change, our hands were kind of forced to change, and the old coach was a stickler for details and form, this new gym seems to be more about trying the bonuses even if they are ugly. different philosophies I guess, but man it hurts to watch.

 

[Popcorn]

He's 9. That's very young in MAG. The important thing, at 9, is staying focused on his own progress (or steps backwards and still working towards moving forwards). The cohort will change and change again, but I hear that the placements don't really matter (except to him and you as parents, I totally get that!) until way later. I hate to see boys dropping out because they are in the bottom of the rankings at young ages, when they haven't even hit their strides yet. My own boy could barely remember his routines when he competed at 8 He's 9 now, and I still wonder....
I would worry about the new gym's lax attitude about form though.....again, 9 is young, and needs reminders about form constantly!

 

[gracyomalley]

L6 is much harder than L5, without bonuses - even if it doesn't look it. And the scoring is tougher, esp on form. There are also sometimes details that really make a big difference - for instance DS team was all doing their rings dismount slightly wrong last year...fast forward a year and the same kids (not rock stars - the rock stars are now L7s) improved their scores by 2-3 full points - same routine, just form and strength improved.

Different teams have very different philosophies about training younger boys (and by younger I mean pre-pubertal). Some move them fast even with "bad" form and some hold them back then skip levels once strength kicks in...some kids learn skills messy then clean them up and some learn them slowly but with proper form - and different coaches will approach that differently.

Scoring 54s is middle of the road for L6, so not awful - L6 has the smallest percentage of kids make it to regionals (in most regions that I checked) of ALL the levels...up to 10....similar to old 6/new 5 for girls its a level where the kids move from "easier" gymnastics to getting ready for the "real stuff" - and that takes time for some kids to master - especially if growth is involved too.

My 11 year old is repeating L6 this year, and growing like a weed and his strength to weight ratio having issues keeping up, as well as all his swings feel different. On some events he's made great progress in form and technique, and on others he's lost ground. He'll be happy to make regionals. (less than 30% of our states L6s made it last year). His brother could have NEVER done L6 skills at 11...partly because he started gym at 10, but also because the strength wasn't there - fast forward a few years of patience with himself and coaches of various skill level but who all encouraged him to keep working, and he's competing L8 with the hopes of doing quite well if he can get healthy enough to do the skills he's been training (ankle issues).

Many of the kids who are great L5s or even L6s quit long before the later levels, and also there are kids who can master L5 stuff but will really struggle to get to L8+. My youngest may be that kid, but having seen how much changes with puberty, as long as he is enjoying the sport I will encourage him to give his body time to grow...

Everyone has bad years...the question is can he find the enjoyment in the sport to keep working at it, and are the coaches able to coach for the long haul...

 

[profmom]

this new gym seems to be more about trying the bonuses even if they are ugly. different philosophies I guess, but man it hurts to watch.

That'll kill ya at L6! For the bonus itself, they can't take more than the .5 that it's worth, but they can and do deduct the heck out of them when the boys are getting into and out of the bonus skills. Plus if they don't do the bonuses well enough to get credit and it's a bonus that replaces a required skill, the judge could take the entire element away.

If he has lots of sloppy bonuses in his routines, his scores will go up appreciably as he cleans them up. Inlocate on rings, giants on hi bar, and handstand on rings were big downfalls for a lot of guys I saw at L6 last year. Less so but still a factor trying to get that handstand press out of the straddle L on pbars if it wasn't going well.

The good news is it's a medium term problem. Working on all that stuff will benefit him in the long run. It's just a question of if he competes it or not, and some gyms will not let boys compete bonuses until they can do them with only a few tenths' deduction -- and those boys will place above some routines with bonuses.

 

[Sasha]

If he's competing bonuses that are still a 'work in progress' that certainly explains the dropping scores. Personally, I feel the judges at L6 become more 'punishing' of form mistakes than in L5.

A little tangential to your original question, but it's just got me thinking....
I find it interesting that in women's gymnastics, there seems a universal approach to "master each skill with perfect form as you learn it", whereas in MAG, there seem to be two distinct "camps" of thought..

1) Train clean basics only and don't even train bonuses/new skills until you've achieved and maintained that clean base. Don't compete a level unless you mastered (60's+) the previous one. There is no rush, so being 'in age' at level 8 is not as important as having as clean a foundation as possible. (Most won't start L4 until age 7/8, and repeating early compulsories common, but scores are high and teams win a lot. Not many will be 'in age' for nationals at L8).

2) Most boys are sloppier in general when they're younger (under 10-11 ish), so teach them more skills now with 'good enough' form (not completely wrong form), and they will clean up over time and ultimately be better prepared for optionals. Don't stress over the flexed feet now. "Getting through" compulsories is the goal (I have literally heard more than one coach at different gyms use those words). Only scores in optionals really matter, and if you don't teach the mechanics of harder skills early (younger), it will be harder to catch up and be competitive in optionals.

Personally, I prefer a middle ground, but I can definitely point out programs that lean one way vs the other by watching their gymnasts, both in competition, and their level/scoring histories.

I will also add that for my particular son, Camp #2 was primarily what he needed for levels 4-5, and into learning skills for 6, but now, for L6 season, is at a point where clean-up is, I think, what is serving him best. I can imagine, though, that for L7, he might again need a period of focus on skill-acquisition and sacrifice the performance-form somewhat to keep on track for L8. Will mean fewer medals in the short term. I'm ok with that.

 

[Pigeon]

Thank you so much to the more experienced parents posting about this! I was a gymnast when I was younger and I can't even believe how much different MAG is from WAG. Just a different mindset and approach to coaching boys. It's hard (for me) to watch sometimes (when I just want to scream "point your d@*m toes!!!!" at my son)...I think our club falls in the middle of the two camps of thought above, and I think (just from watching some of the older boys) that they might tailor it to the strengths and weaknesses of some of the kids (I guess that's one benefit of fewer kids on the boys team), as it seems in some cases they are just waiting for the boys to grow into their strength.

I was recently making small talk with one of our coaches about an upper level boy who has recently joined our club. I said something about him being a beautiful gymnast, and the response was along the lines of "yes, but so injured from poor coaching". He can only compete a couple of events (which he does wonderfully) because he is too hurt to do the others. Anyway, I have no idea how he got all of his injuries but you can certainly see, in the sport of men's gymnastics where the real developments and strength comes at later ages, the importance of keeping them healthy when they are young.

So, I sit tight and when I want to freak out about bent legs and fooling around (with my 8 yr old) I repeat to myself "it's marathon, not a sprint....it's a marathon, not a sprint". And I remind myself this isn't women's gymnastics .