? Skills

[ek2]

At what point does a gymnast "have" a skill as opposed to training a skill? What is the criteria? Example: Does a gymnast "have" a giant if the coach needs to put her in position to rotate around the bar? Or if a gymnast can do a layout on the floor but is only a few inches above the mats?

I have noticed that some parents will talk about the new skills their dd have, but the skill is no where near ready to compete.

 

[bogwoppit]

In our school system they have a three stage description for new skills. Beginning, transferring and applying. I think these three terms can be safely applied to gym skills too.

Applying is clearly the stage where the skill is performed with correct form, safely and without a spot and with the ability to link it with other skills in the right way. I would say competition ready, but after a few years watchng youtube, I see that one coaches comp ready is certainly not the same as anothers. Plus many parents feel that as their child has just begun a skill they should be competing it.EEK!

 

[Billy]

IMO, a gymnast "has" a skill when she can do the skill by herself with no spot, nor any need for the coach to be nearby ("confidence" presence). The skill may not be "competition ready" but she is able to perform it on her own and thus work on perfecting it without constant help from the coach.

For example, a gymnast "has" her back handspring on beam when she can get up on the high beam and perform it by herself anytime the coach tells her to without needing the coach nearby. She may still have a bent leg or unpointed toe or may not always land it but she can do it and is able to now work on perfecting it.

 

[gymnut1]

that is a really interesting thought. I think you really 'have' a skill when you can 'save' it. What I mean is eg. when the round off and the BHS go perfectly my dd can do a lovely layout. But - if the R off or the BHS are not quite right she can't. But she can now pull a back tuck from a less than good ROBHS. So I consider she has her back tuck but not yet her layout ever though she can throw one. Looking back she went through this stage with BWO on beam too.

I definitely dont include kids doing moves with poor form. To me they are still in the learning zone and don't yet have the skill.

I think Starmaker once quoted her dd as saying she 'made' her kip but didn't 'have' her kip. I remember because I thought it was a really clever distinction. One is doing it when all the conditions come together right (ie a little luck involved) the other is owning the skill (and being able to save it).

 

[Megley]

I imagine it's somewhat subjective. I like Shawn's definition but would add that I don't consider that my dd "has" a skill until she can do it by herself without a spot and with decent form consistently, by which I mean at least 90% of the time. The fact that she may occasionally fall on her bhs on beam doesn't mean that she doesn't "have" that skill because 90% of the time she doesn't fall. On the other hand, she doesn't "have" her free hip to hs because she cannot do it with any consistency. There is a difference between "making" a skill and "having" it but I don't think you can discount every skill that isn't perfect. I mean even elites mess up skills that they presumably "have."

 

[gymnut1]

I do agree Megley. I would include skills that aren't perfect but I wouldn't include skills with really poor form, poor technique or poor height or look chucked or dangerous. To me they are still being learned. A slightly bent knee or foot would come under being polished to me.

Sometimes elite mess up the worst - I guess that is because they do the hardest skills.

 

[bogwoppit]

How does a gymnast work on perfecting a skill without input from the coach? Both my girls have needed their coach to tell them what needs fixing and how to fix it. Without that they are just repeating the same mistakes over and over, and therefore training their bodies to remembr the poor form.

Mind you my kids are competing ONLY for the fun at this stage and therefore they can compete skills that are less than perfect if they want to, there are no aspirations of higher levels. Maybe things are different in gyms with higher level programmes as then I would expect coaches are looking for perfection and that requires a lot of hands on spotting.

 

[gymnut1]

Our gym comes under the super perfect requirement. If your press handstand has bent knees and arms and chest out you don't 'have' it. You are asked to go back to the drills to improve those things. And yes Bog it is very hands on. I am exhausted after a couple of hours coaching.

 

[cher062]

You "have a skill" when you can do it well enough (not perfect) for it to count for some points at a meet.

 

[Billy]

How does a gymnast work on perfecting a skill without input from the coach? Both my girls have needed their coach to tell them what needs fixing and how to fix it. Without that they are just repeating the same mistakes over and over, and therefore training their bodies to remembr the poor form.

Mind you my kids are competing ONLY for the fun at this stage and therefore they can compete skills that are less than perfect if they want to, there are no aspirations of higher levels. Maybe things are different in gyms with higher level programmes as then I would expect coaches are looking for perfection and that requires a lot of hands on spotting.

Gymnasts always need input from coaches but the coaches cannot possibly see every attempt by every gymnast at every practice. Some things, obviously, require feedback because the gymnast cannot see herself to know if her toes were pointed, etc. But other things can easily be practiced without the coach standing there, on beam especially. The gymnast knows if she fell off the beam doing a skill, or if she had major wobbles or balance checks. The gymnast also knows if she hit her feet on the floor while doing KCH-KCH on bars or if she didn't make her connection from LB to HB smoothly or if she landed her tumbling really squatty or with her chest down on floor.

And yes, this kind of self-awareness does come with age and time and practice. When they do enough of a skill, they can often "feel" when it goes badly but that doesn't mean that they don't also need feedback from their coaches.

 

[MdGymMom01]

So then, when can uptraining start?

How much of the skill needs to be "gotten or owned" before uptraining is allowed or beneficial? For instance, my dd has a pretty good strong kip and it is consistent, but her arms are not totally straight. Should she be allowed to uptrain level 6 skills such as cast handstands and skills that work out of a kip? Shouldn't they have a technically correct main skill before adding onto it? I've noticed that on some skills my dd may be uptraining on she gets "lazy" with the prior skill and then that starts deteriorating so she has to go back and clean up form before she can uptrain again.

 

[LizzieLac]

I do agree Megley. I would include skills that aren't perfect but I wouldn't include skills with really poor form, poor technique or poor height or look chucked or dangerous. To me they are still being learned. A slightly bent knee or foot would come under being polished to me.

Sometimes elite mess up the worst - I guess that is because they do the hardest skills.

Wow, this is a very interesting conversation. I haven't thought about this is this respect because I see plenty of level 4-5 girls at our gym with "sloppy" ROBHSBHS. Sometimes my DD is one of them, but I certainly think she "has" her ROBHSBHS. What is intersting is the level 5 where it is still sloppy but they MUST have it to compete the routine...right?

So, I guess my distinction has to be that they can do it on their own, any time they are asked. No spot, but the form may need work. Also,I think a level of consistency indicates they "have it." At mt DD's level that would mean consistently landing their feet on the beam after cartwheel for level 5. Sure, sometimes there is a miss, as gymnnut1 says, even the elites mess up. But that cartwheel landing better be there 90% of the time.

 

[ek2]

At dd's gym the coaches do not give credit until the skill is almost text book. Example: kip/cast handstand/ giant- the cast handstand needs to be a "handstand" 90 percent of the time for the coaches to say a gymnast has mastered the skill. They will not let the girls attempt level 8 pirouettes until their handstands and clear hips are consistently all the way to handstand.
Same with vault. The front handspring needs to be technically a 9.6 or better for the coaches to allow the girls to do tsuks (flipping). They can still do lots of drills but the front handspring needs to be really good to move to the next skill.
Beam and floor are treated the same. Their philosophy is to uptrain, with the caveat that the lower level skills are technically good so that the new skills learned are learned with good form.

 

[CoachGoofy]

When I'm talking about 'having' a skill at the gym, they have it when it's a surprise that they don't make it, instead of a surprise when they do, & when doing something into or out of it-I mostly teach T&T so this is relevant in this case-is a reasonable expectation.

They 'have' a routine when they can do it consistently without anything that'd be considered an interruption--no extra bounces, no questionable shapes--in the box (or down the middle of the double mini or tumble strip), preferably without a safety spotter feeling the need to do anything but watch.

 

[gymnut1]

You "have a skill" when you can do it well enough (not perfect) for it to count for some points at a meet.

Although I know where you are coming from Cher I went EEK when I read this. lol.

I have seen (and I am sure you have too) a child at a meet who warms up a dreadful (eg) full. Twisting off the floor, slow BHS, legs bent, apart and everywhere. Piking down so she is kissing her knees. You sit there and go 'she really shouldn't be doing that' - you wonder if it is nerves but sure enough she throws the same monster in her floor routine.

No way is that having that skill BUT it will count for points at the meet because she is 'attempting' it and also if it is a requirement (we call them EGRs) she will get points for fullfilling the EGR. Unfortunately you do not have to do a skill 'well' at all for it to count for points. However that 'monster' skill will also attract a shed load of deductions and hopefully wipe out any plus points from throwing it in the first place. I know you weren't thinking of this scenario but it came to mind.

 

[gymnut1]

At dd's gym the coaches do not give credit until the skill is almost text book. Example: kip/cast handstand/ giant- the cast handstand needs to be a "handstand" 90 percent of the time for the coaches to say a gymnast has mastered the skill. They will not let the girls attempt level 8 pirouettes until their handstands and clear hips are consistently all the way to handstand.
Same with vault. The front handspring needs to be technically a 9.6 or better for the coaches to allow the girls to do tsuks (flipping). They can still do lots of drills but the front handspring needs to be really good to move to the next skill.
Beam and floor are treated the same. Their philosophy is to uptrain, with the caveat that the lower level skills are technically good so that the new skills learned are learned with good form.

Are we at the same gym? We apply this right down to the youngest children. For instance I don't teach a cartwheel until the child has a correct handstand shape and enough strength to hold it for a second or two. We also don't teach a bar turn until they have cast handstands, giants and clear hips to handstands consistently and with good technique

 

[MdGymMom01]

My motto has always been: "Perfection before Progression". Gymnastics is a sport about beauty, grace and perfection (or getting as close to it as possible). When people rush skills just so that they can uptrain and say they are "training" these certain skills, the artestry and beauty in gymnastics is lost and it ends up being a game of who can chuck the hardest skills.

 

[gymjourneymom]

At dd's gym the coaches do not give credit until the skill is almost text book. Example: kip/cast handstand/ giant- the cast handstand needs to be a "handstand" 90 percent of the time for the coaches to say a gymnast has mastered the skill. They will not let the girls attempt level 8 pirouettes until their handstands and clear hips are consistently all the way to handstand.
Same with vault. The front handspring needs to be technically a 9.6 or better for the coaches to allow the girls to do tsuks (flipping). They can still do lots of drills but the front handspring needs to be really good to move to the next skill.
Beam and floor are treated the same. Their philosophy is to uptrain, with the caveat that the lower level skills are technically good so that the new skills learned are learned with good form.

Yes ek, this is how my DD's gym is too! Striving for perfection is always the goal. And that type of training has served her well. She has beautiful form & exacution of skills. But unfortunately my DD is a perfectionist to a fault. She NEVER thinks she has a skill "perfectly" enough, even though she really does & everyone tells her so.

This is what I(& therapists) have determined most of her "fears" are. They are unfounded fears(anxiety), that (in her mind), she just is not good enough to move on to bigger skills without making a big mistake & injuring herself. She always thinks what she has is never good enough...even though it really, REALLY is. So unfortuanately, she ends up stalling her own progress. What skills she has, she does extremely well and she brings in big scores. But she can't bring herself to move on from there. It drives her coaches crazy! I admit she is a tough case. Not your average mental block here or there. Her personal need for perfection is her own worst enemy. She over thinks everything!!!

I wish so much that I could help her overcome this issue! We have tried believe me!!! But I think her anxiety level will be something she will struggle with her whole life. It breaks my heart that she has to deal with this issue! Oops! Sorry kind of hijacked the thread here. But as you can tell this issue is weighing heavy on my heart today.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

When the child is consistently sticking the skill without assistance (with good form). It doesn't need to be polished, but close to it in order for me to think that my child has acquired a new skill.

 

[ek2]

Are we at the same gym? We apply this right down to the youngest children. For instance I don't teach a cartwheel until the child has a correct handstand shape and enough strength to hold it for a second or two. We also don't teach a bar turn until they have cast handstands, giants and clear hips to handstands consistently and with good technique

Mayb E.

I think part of the problem is coaches like to reward a good practice or event and allow gymnasts to "try" new skills. I think doing this every once in awhile is ok, and makes practice fun, but, for example, if the backhandspring on beam is crooked and the gymnast is "landing" it but the form is crazy having her now connect it to a walkover without the backhandspring being perfected makes for bad form on the new skill. At her old gym they required level 7's to do a backwalkover/handspring flight and most of the girls could do that, but because the form was bad on one or both skills individually they received major deductions. What seems to be "having" the skill is defined as not falling off (in the case of beam) which in my mind creates all kinds of problems when bigger skills are involved. I guess it all boils down to how important are the base skills and getting those correct vs. uptraining but the skills are pretty ugly.