Toe shoot to handstand

Discussion in 'Skills & Drills Forum' started by BarCoach, Jan 11, 2010.

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  1. BarCoach

    BarCoach Coach Coach

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    I recently started working these with one of my level 8s. She has a beautiful toe shoot to high and a free hip handstand so I thought they would be easy, but she couldn't get it. We've only done one practice, but I'd like to have her learn it as fast as possible. She seems to fling her feet off the bar when she gets underneath it, but only when going from a cast handstand. I've told her to push her feet into the bar, but I don't know what else to say.

  2. CoachTodd

    CoachTodd Coach Coach Proud Parent

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    It sounds like she may be coming to the bar with her feet a bit early.
    I try to tell them to act like they are going to do a free hip hand (i.e. drop) then put the feet on later. The fact that she is flying off early usually indicates an early entry but it's hard to say without video.
  3. gymdog

    gymdog Coach Coach Proud Relative Former Gymnast

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    Yeah, a late toe on can need a lot of development if she's never drilled it before. I would work late toe on drills and just have her circle around the bar. She shouldn't be opening until more like 3/4 through the circle (I'm counting that starting from HS) and it sounds like she's opening closer to 1/2 which could be an issue of not being comfortable with the root skill or even "peeling" off because she is not in a good circling position. They need to be on the bar kind of in forced arch which is actually not that easy when you think about it. There is a lot that can be not ideal even just about how they are putting their feet on the bar.

    I would look at all that before adding the shoot and then go to strap bar and spot it there, she may be more comfortable with waiting. She needs to know where is the correct place to do the shoot so she's going to have to do the circle (no shoot) with a verbal prompt of where the correct position is. Like free hips I would have her wait even a little longer than ideal for the shaping (to make sure she isn't doing it a tad early and always arching) and then from there take it more towards handstand. if she goes for handstand immediate most likely she is going to go on the side of early. I have always seen this with just "trying" toe shoot hand. It's because it's less scary to shoot from more under the bar then to hold on to closer to the right place and shoot up towards handstand. They're afraid of what will happen if they slip or crumple from that position because they can tell it will be hard to recover (it will, initially). They need to get comfortable doing the entry first and then entering to clear support. I have seen a coach once even explaining he has them do a lot of sole circle in the correct positions and as they come on top of the bar he pushes the space between the shoulder blades in and lifts kind of up, hard to explain but basically he is teaching them how to compress and just get their feet off the bar, but on top of the bar. An early lead up.
  4. BarCoach

    BarCoach Coach Coach

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    We haven't even begun trying to shoot yet. I was just having her try to go around the bar but her feet kept peeling off. It only happened from a handstand though. She can go around fine from a cast to horizontal. Maybe she needs to learn to control the drop to horizontal? We'll try more today in straps and i'll watch to see if shes bringing her feet in too early.

  5. dunno

    dunno New Member CBBC Board Member Verified Coach Proud Parent Former Gymnast Club Owner

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    place a fat mat in front of the low bar. a stack of mats or one big fat mat must be slightly above the height of the low bar and far enough away from the gymnast so that when they swing thru the bottom, and then up, their fanny doesn't hit the mat.

    they must learn late drop. tell them to place their feet under the bar rather than on top or the face of the bar. telling them this will cause them to elevate their shoulders and correctly "push" the bar into the drop. you won't have to say much. it becomes self-evident to the gymnast. if their feet come off then they will be "pulling" the bar. this is wrong. so continue to tell them to place their feet "under" the bar. it will then self-correct. if their feet come off early, they will hit the fat mat with their bottoms.

    so, have them practice up onto the fat mat. tell them that once they get above the level of the mat to then release the bar by throwing it behind their head [like a tkatchev] and perform a "shushunova" up onto the mat. it can be done straddled or with legs together. if you have a trampoline or tumbl trak, as the gymnast doesn't know the movement for a "shush", you have them back drop>kip up>pike straddle V>then stomach drop.

    the key components to watch for are that their feet get placed under the bar, that their fannies do not hit the mat on the way up, and that they complete the "shushunova" onto to their stomach without their feet striking the fat mat on the way thru the skill.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2010
  6. dunno

    dunno New Member CBBC Board Member Verified Coach Proud Parent Former Gymnast Club Owner

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    after reviewing your post again, do you mean a toe on toe up to handstand??

    if so, my post above is for the toe up to high bar, or what you will hear coaches refer to as a "chinese" sit up or hiccup.

    if this is not your issue/skill, the gymnast needs to learn to go entirely around the bar with her feet on. DO NOT try to teach them to "shoot" to handstand if they are not able to circle the bar with their feet on.

    once they can do this, you tell them to "jump" off at the end. as you see them able to jump off, you instruct them to "jump" off a bit earlier and a bit higher. eventually, they will "jump" off a bit sooner and open up to a handstand.

    you might be wasting your time if the athlete is not able to perform a clear/free hip to handstand perfectly. they must understand this so that they know what to do once they jump off the bar while circling.

    questions? post it.
  7. gymdog

    gymdog Coach Coach Proud Relative Former Gymnast

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    I think this is what is being referred to.

    I wrote my previous post assuming the athlete already has a proficient sole circle. Otherwise you're trying to do the same thing from a more advanced "drop." If sole circle has not been introduced, don't start from handstand. How is her flexibility? They need pretty good pike flexibility to stay compressed. If they don't have the strength and flexibility to "compress" in pike they will probably peel their feet off the bar on the bottom. The late toe drop is the second step, to me. I don't know anyone's who been able to quickly learn late toe drop to circle without having ever learned a sole circle (kind of like squat/pike on style). I imagine you could teach it that way to small, flexible, strong kids who are really easy to spot, but I don't know.

    Check if she can easily compress grabbing a floor bar with the ball of her feet on the bar. Also sometimes with this skill on bar, they are shifting their hands back over the bar as they put the feet on (drop phase), if they are in a position putting too much weight on their feet. This is part of why I like straps. They can drop harder without wanting to shift the hands over/regrip. If they do the drop correctly it would be nearly impossible to shift the hands over in the drop phase.

    She can just start on the bar in a stand and do the circle to stand. If this is still a problem, she can even start sitting on the bar and circle around with spot (seat circle). Then you can drill the late toe on from a jump. Kind of like the free hip drill where you put a block behind the bar, and the kids jump and do a free hip? Well if they have to jump and do the toe on, they can't "step down" onto the bar, so early.
  8. Valentin

    Valentin Coach Coach

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    Just because you want to teach the skills as soon as possible doesn't mean its fair to expect it will come quickly.

    First like its been said. you need to teach her a Sole circle. This will teach her how to shift the wrists, keep the feet on the bar, and learn/feel how to work the bar (the flexing the bar). This is important.. This should really be your first line of drills..

    In the mean time you should be drilling in a late toe on drop, well as late as you can, but it depends on the kids ability/level of conditioning as well (won't go into technique as i will assume you are aware of the technique since you coaching it, but ask if you need more detail), as well as the opening and the drop from HS using a variety of drills (there aren't really a great deal of them so i am assume you know them)

    When she can do continuous circles with some amplitude (preferably bar flexing) its safe to say she is ready to work the actual shoot, and to introduce a toe on action. Always remember to remind the gymnast to try and snap the feet UNDER the bar, onto ontop. If she puts the feet to early/ontop of the bar or on the side, generally the feet will want to come off on the opposite side (Action reaction), hence why the bar flexing is quite important.

    Introduce the actual tow on from a smaller cast (like from 45deg) and spot, also do sole circles into shoot. (With and without spotting, or using straps or all three depends what is available to you). And when all this done you can add from HS, because from here the fear factor kicks in, and feet coming off here can also be a reason for it.

    I won't talk about the actual shoot as you didn't ask about it.
  9. BarCoach

    BarCoach Coach Coach

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    Thanks to everyone for your replies. She can do sole circle all the way around, is very flexible, and has a decent clearhip, although its inconsistent, which is part of the reason I wanted to start working these. We haven't begun trying to shoot off yet. The problem is still toeing on from handstand. She seems to change everything when going from handstand. She can circle the bar fine from a cast to horizontal. She didn't get to use the strap bar yesterday, but that will be the next step. I want her to get in there and just do tons of drops and circles, and she'll figure it out.
  10. gymch34

    gymch34 New Member

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    this will take some time, so be patient.....

    *a good drill is to have her do multiple straight leg toe circles
    *then have her do 2 or 3, them pick her toes up at end of circle and come off like a small clear hip
    *then she can progress to 1 circle around, then just pick her toes up, then toe son & circle, then toes up-repeat

    *until she has the above in control, its most likely she isnt doing the skill directly

    *a late drop is essential, as is starting it like a clear hip, coming off low & progressing higher until it gets to hs

    *i teach it from a jump off a block bc it makes then drop later & they have to use more technique rather thank just swing-it should snap before she puts her toes on the bar
    i also think the best way to spot is under the bar, as she circles-you grab her shoulders & push her up-rather than just pulling her legs...similar spot to a stalder

    I would youtube the skill & watch it slow motion until you understand the mechanics better. Good gymnasts to watch are cassie whitcomb, kristen maloney & bridget sloan, they have really nice toe handstands.
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