Parents Increasing elite age from 16 to 18

[Dahlialover]

Just because little girls can do big skills earlier doesn’t mean that they should. The current crop of older elites shows that it is entirely possible for WAG gymnasts to be successful elites into their 20s. Pushing the age back at the top will trickle down to the lower levels and result in a safer pace of training for younger gymnasts. They can still work big skills into the pit and on trampoline but coaches will delay putting those skills on the floor to limit wear and tear on the joints to protect them for future competition.

Fundamentally, this is a child welfare question. Little girls’ bodies may mature earlier but psychologically they are still children. Older gymnasts are more mature and better able to consent to the rigors and dangers of the sport. Men’s gymnastics doesn’t have the same history of abuse because the gymnasts are older and less vulnerable. The sport will adapt to raising the minimum age and it will improve child safety.

 

[Jenny]

I think you are naive if you believe this, but each to their own.

 

[Dahlialover]

I think you are naive if you believe this, but each to their own.

Please enlighten me!

 

[NutterButter]

The thing is, the age to have 'older and consenting' elite gymnasts would have to be significantly older than it is now to truly have a dent in changing any psychology or child welfare concerns. It's still going to be a sport for children. And I don't believe physiology makes it possible for kids to start gymnastics in their early/mid teens (to be older and of 'consenting' age) and progress to elite gymnastics during their late teens/early 20's. While 20+ year olds are certainly capable of elite gymnastics, they weren't learning gymnastics as mid/older teens. It just doesn't seem feasible.

And then there's the question of NCAA....

It just isn't realistic.

 

[Aussie_coach]

With a great deal of good genetics and good luck, you can start gymnastics at a later age, progress slower and move onto elite.

Making it to elite takes a great deal of good genetics and good luck at any age, but this is even rarer in those who start older, so it would significantly narrow the talent pool.

Raising the age for the Olympics is unlikely to really raise the age kids start gymnastics or learn skills, but it may allow for coaches to pace athletes more during the vulnerable pre teen and teen years.

There is a whole other issues associated with its gymnastics training as you get older though, and it is a combination of time and money. Elite gymnasts train 30-40 hours a week and pay a fortune.

Young adults graduating high school, starting College, starting careers etc rarely have the finances to do this without the support of their parents. It would very frequently delay financial independence from parents.

During high school and College it’s a lot more possible to make a gymnastics training schedule work, but once working full time, it would be very hard.

 

[gymgal]

Young adults graduating high school, starting College, starting careers etc rarely have the finances to do this without the support of their parents. It would very frequently delay financial independence from parents.

During high school and College it’s a lot more possible to make a gymnastics training schedule work, but once working full time, it would be very hard.

How do male gymnasts manage this? Wouldn't female gymnasts be able to do the same?

 

[HopefulGymnast]

I don't like starting discussions/disagreements, but I would like to share my thoughts on this a bit because I have very strong feelings about this subject.

MAG predominantly relies on the adult strength that boys do not develop until after puberty. There are many skills in biys gymnastics, that you simply can not reach them until the teen years when they are developing those adult muscles.

For girls it is generally the opposite and it’s easier to teach skills prior to puberty, their strength to body ratio is different.

First of all, for girls I think it depends on the skill. After puberty the ratio is different, but they tend to have more strength and focus. Puberty does allow for easier muscle development I believe, tho far less so than in boys. I've been the oldest in a group for a while, and that also made me by far the strongest in the group.

Secondly, we can currently see that elite gymnasts are perfectly capable of being competetive and being the best long after puberty. I feel like we can conclude from that that skills don't get any less achievable after puberty. Teaching skills before puberty sometimes just means reteaching them after puberty, which isn't ideal either. I'm not saying you shouldn't teach skills before puberty, because it helps build the basis and grow etc. But it's not like girls are better gymnasts before puberty than after. Puberty just gives an adjustment period.

Starting at the very beginning with your 4-6 year old gymnasts. Girls at this age in general listen better, follow instructions better, can focus on detail, focus for longer etc. they are ready for a structured more technical program earlier.

Unfortunatly this is true in a lot of societies right now. If you treat them the same, boys and girls will both be able to be equally attentive. However, in many cultures boys grow up constantly hearing believes that boys cant behave, being treated like they cant behave, and given more leeway. You can do your best in your gym to treat boys and girls the same, but it may not help because they don't just grow up in your gym. Still, the right attitude can really help a bit. At our gym i see boys running around the halls yelling and stuff even at ages like 11, and they barely get told off. I can't imagine the girls getting away with being half that loud in the halls even at younger ages.

Boys at this are less inclined to structure, focus, listening, etc, They aren’t ready for a structured class that focuses excessively on technique. They need to run, jump, climb, swing and develop,op their body awareness.

Okay, sorry. I know I just said we can't completely change boys' attitudes in the gym but I have to speak on this point. How often do we get posts here saying "my 5 year old cant focus in team because its all just drills and stuff". But for the girls we don't say "they need to run, jump, climb". With the girls, we say they'll learn it in time if we stick with it. Not having the same attitude with the boys is exactly why boys can't behave as well.

in older children, say around 6-11 for girls, this is the key developmental time, they need to learn more skills, earlier before they go through puberty. This is the ideal time to teach the big tumbling and flipping skills.

Biys at this age, can’t do most of the “big” skills required for their sport. So they are better to work on a modified program that does teach the things they are ready for like tumbling, building flexibility (as this will be harder later) and the fundamentals on each apparatus, to prepare for when they are ready for the big stuff.

I partially agree here. Girls can learn skills at earlier or later ages, but a lot of boys skills can only be learnt at later ages. In both cases they gain certain benefits from learning what they can at a young age, but with boys it's just more limited what they cán learn at that young age. However, I think for both genders the most important during the developmental years are strong basics, not big skills. Of course big skills can help too, but it's not that you can't learn them a bit later either. However, if you need to start learning the basics at a later age you're at a bigger disadvantage as those have to be second nature.

When it comes to earlier vs. later, there's also a lot to be said for teaching the big skills later. At a young age, our bodies are developing and fragile. If you want to be able to compete and keep learning and improving for years to come, then you may want to take it slower on the body. Sure, it may make it a bit harder to learn skills if you didn't learn it during your early developmental years, but it's still completely possible and can lead to more longevity in the sport.

So this type of development encourages girls to be pushed through your and boys to wait.

MAG predominantly relies on the adult strength that boys do not develop until after puberty.

On these points I agree: MAG has more patientce because it has to. The boys are trained with the idea of an older competition age, because they can't reach a lot of the skills earlier. MAG requires the higher age, where WAG does not.
However, WAG doesn't require the lower age. We could just as well be aiming for gymnasts to peak at 25. Look at Simone Biles. Look at Jade Carey. There have even been elite gymnasts who only started at age 12. (Also, chusovitina just became national champion at age 48, and though I'd not say she's of the level of biles and such, I think she's still at the same level as when she was younger.)

Anyway, thanks to anybody who took the time to read this, and I hope I haven't offended anybody with my ramblings. I'm a scientist and I like reading up on research about sports development and about biological and societal influences on gender and sex, so this is a topic I'm kind of passionate about. (This and how to fight DOMS (muscle soreness), which I've read a toooon of papers on, haha. For personal use reasons.)

 

[nocoolname32]

You can not compare MAG and WAG.

MAG predominantly relies on the adult strength that boys do not develop until after puberty. There are many skills in biys gymnastics, that you simply can not reach them until the teen years when they are developing those adult muscles.

For girls it is generally the opposite and it’s easier to teach skills prior to puberty, their strength to body ratio is different.

There are so many reasons why girls skew younger in gymnastics.

Starting at the very beginning with your 4-6 year old gymnasts. Girls at this age in general listen better, follow instructions better, can focus on detail, focus for longer etc. they are ready for a structured more technical program earlier.

Boys at this are less inclined to structure, focus, listening, etc, They aren’t ready for a structured class that focuses excessively on technique. They need to run, jump, climb, swing and develop,op their body awareness.

in older children, say around 6-11 for girls, this is the key developmental time, they need to learn more skills, earlier before they go through puberty. This is the ideal time to teach the big tumbling and flipping skills.

Biys at this age, can’t do most of the “big” skills required for their sport. So they are better to work on a modified program that does teach the things they are ready for like tumbling, building flexibility (as this will be harder later) and the fundamentals on each apparatus, to prepare for when they are ready for the big stuff.

So this type of development encourages girls to be pushed through your and boys to wait.

Fro, there girls will go through puberty earlier, and hit peak height earlier. Boys will develop later and tend to have longer international careers.

Thanks so much for explaining this. I've wondered why my son who is really good as a 9 yr old is still way behind a really good 9 yr old WAG. This has calmed my nerves haha.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Raising the age for Sr Elite may not be necessary if they raised the entry age for HOPES. 9-10 years old for entry means they must have level 9/10 skills by age 9. That requires hours and hours of training high-level skills and conditioning between ages 5-9. Like 20+ hours a week, and in most cases these kids train about 30. Regular weekly training of 20+ hours, multiple private lessons, personal trainers, special diets, homeschooling (nothing against homeschooling, my kids have and do homeschool; but some don’t actually do proper homeschooling and only make their kid do math and reading),etc, all while still in elementary school.

I know there are talented little girls out there, but a reasonable pace will keep them from being pushed too much bith physically and mentally. When I see some IG kids at age 6 doing multiple back handsprings into a 2 1/2 twist with scary form, off-balance landings, not competing the rotation, etc on their backyard tumble trak or air mats; then see backyard strap bars with their kindergartener’s hands tied to the bar and them doing Very high-level skills, etc, it’s ALARMING!

So my vote is raise the minimum entry age.

 

[Jenny]

I don't like starting discussions/disagreements, but I would like to share my thoughts on this a bit because I have very strong feelings about this subject.

First of all, for girls I think it depends on the skill. After puberty the ratio is different, but they tend to have more strength and focus. Puberty does allow for easier muscle development I believe, tho far less so than in boys. I've been the oldest in a group for a while, and that also made me by far the strongest in the group.

Secondly, we can currently see that elite gymnasts are perfectly capable of being competetive and being the best long after puberty. I feel like we can conclude from that that skills don't get any less achievable after puberty. Teaching skills before puberty sometimes just means reteaching them after puberty, which isn't ideal either. I'm not saying you shouldn't teach skills before puberty, because it helps build the basis and grow etc. But it's not like girls are better gymnasts before puberty than after. Puberty just gives an adjustment period.


Unfortunatly this is true in a lot of societies right now. If you treat them the same, boys and girls will both be able to be equally attentive. However, in many cultures boys grow up constantly hearing believes that boys cant behave, being treated like they cant behave, and given more leeway. You can do your best in your gym to treat boys and girls the same, but it may not help because they don't just grow up in your gym. Still, the right attitude can really help a bit. At our gym i see boys running around the halls yelling and stuff even at ages like 11, and they barely get told off. I can't imagine the girls getting away with being half that loud in the halls even at younger ages.


Okay, sorry. I know I just said we can't completely change boys' attitudes in the gym but I have to speak on this point. How often do we get posts here saying "my 5 year old cant focus in team because its all just drills and stuff". But for the girls we don't say "they need to run, jump, climb". With the girls, we say they'll learn it in time if we stick with it. Not having the same attitude with the boys is exactly why boys can't behave as well.


I partially agree here. Girls can learn skills at earlier or later ages, but a lot of boys skills can only be learnt at later ages. In both cases they gain certain benefits from learning what they can at a young age, but with boys it's just more limited what they cán learn at that young age. However, I think for both genders the most important during the developmental years are strong basics, not big skills. Of course big skills can help too, but it's not that you can't learn them a bit later either. However, if you need to start learning the basics at a later age you're at a bigger disadvantage as those have to be second nature.

When it comes to earlier vs. later, there's also a lot to be said for teaching the big skills later. At a young age, our bodies are developing and fragile. If you want to be able to compete and keep learning and improving for years to come, then you may want to take it slower on the body. Sure, it may make it a bit harder to learn skills if you didn't learn it during your early developmental years, but it's still completely possible and can lead to more longevity in the sport.




On these points I agree: MAG has more patientce because it has to. The boys are trained with the idea of an older competition age, because they can't reach a lot of the skills earlier. MAG requires the higher age, where WAG does not.
However, WAG doesn't require the lower age. We could just as well be aiming for gymnasts to peak at 25. Look at Simone Biles. Look at Jade Carey. There have even been elite gymnasts who only started at age 12. (Also, chusovitina just became national champion at age 48, and though I'd not say she's of the level of biles and such, I think she's still at the same level as when she was younger.)

Anyway, thanks to anybody who took the time to read this, and I hope I haven't offended anybody with my ramblings. I'm a scientist and I like reading up on research about sports development and about biological and societal influences on gender and sex, so this is a topic I'm kind of passionate about. (This and how to fight DOMS (muscle soreness), which I've read a toooon of papers on, haha. For personal use reasons.)

As a Primary School teacher for many years I can tell you absolutely that the core group of boys and girls at age 5-10 behave and present differently and have different needs and behaviours. Of course there are the very focused boys and the very unfocused girls but the main core are very different. And both groups are required and expected to behave the same in school and are treated the same.

Although you say girls can learn skills earlier or later from a physical point of view, you haven't considered the psycological side of things. If you have learned the root skills of flipping and twisting earlier it is less daunting to add to them later. However it is hard mentally to learn root skills in late teens. Boys in general have much less regard for their own safety when trying out tricks at any age and this continues into manhood!

I do think there is a window of opportunity to hook girls into gymnastics physically and mentally and it is way before late teens. Training at a more considered pace to peak later I can see but I don't buy starting later and being able to make elite skills in mid 20s.

 

[HopefulGymnast]

As a Primary School teacher for many years I can tell you absolutely that the core group of boys and girls at age 5-10 behave and present differently and have different needs and behaviours. Of course there are the very focused boys and the very unfocused girls but the main core are very different. And both groups are required and expected to behave the same in school and are treated the same.

Oh I agree completely. I just felt a need to point out that this is probably caused not a biological but a social difference. I'll have to see if I can find it, but I remember for example some research that showed by age 1 our behaviour around babies will already have taught them a lot about their gender roles and had a strong impact.
(I think it might have been among others the research paper "Looking Inwards: Towards a Geographically Sensitive Approach to Occupational Sex Segregation" by vidal et al. 2015)
Basically, my point was that you're very right. By the time they're 5, kids behave very differently depending on gender (on average of course, individuals can totally diverge from this). It does cause a difficult point as for how to coach them: do you now coach the 5 year old boys differently because they behave different? But then you do run the risk of playing a part in the social gender division that causes this difference to begin with.

Also, if you find this topic interesting: I've just come across some papers that indicate that genderstereotyping of infants is decreasing, especially among fathers. This particular research talked about how people will see their babies, not how they treat them (thinking a baby looks 'girly' if they're told it's a girl for instance, regardless of if it really is a girl).

Anyway, sorry for straying so far from gymnastics. If you find it interesting as a topic, I found this page which has a good summary of recent papers on the topic: https://enseignerlegalite.com/en/early-childhood/gender-stereotypes-in-infants-and-toddlers/ . It's well written so it's very readable (one thing i dislike about research papers is they're a pain to read. Both because it has to be due to specific writing standards, and because unfortunately scientists aren't always good writers)

Although you say girls can learn skills earlier or later from a physical point of view, you haven't considered the psycological side of things. If you have learned the root skills of flipping and twisting earlier it is less daunting to add to them later.

I thought I'd mentioned that too, but looking back I seem to have left it out. I agree though, though I think for a large part this goes for both genders. Though girls have beam, which is something boys don't have to deal with.

I've started gymnastics at 24 (just 90 min a week rec) and now 2 years later I've started working a front handsrping on beam and the idea of doing it on the high beam is scary. I think more training hours would help, but I definitely think I was more fearless as a kid. (way too fearless, if I was a gymnast at that age idk what would've happened). Then again I'm very much not your average person, so I really shouldn't be using myself as example.

Anyway, I apologise for my message being a little unstructured, and the ending abrupt.