Limitation of coach or gymnast?

[dancengym]

Is there any way one can tell if the inadequate performance of a gymnast is due to the gymnast's own limitations or the coaches' limitations and/or a suprerior performance of a gymnast is result of superior coaching or superior natural ability of the gymnast.?

I do understand that it takes both great coaching and great natural ability to produce an exemptional gymnast. It just seems like 95% of our gymnasts always ends in the bottom. We have maybe 2 or 3 that consistently place and we have one aspiring elite. Our aspiring 17 year old elite, places 1st at every Level 10 meet but has been trying for 2 to 3 years to qualify as an elite. I just wondered if it is the gymnasts in our gym or if the coaches are the ones lacking. I personally think our gymnasts look like they can be real good. BUt then again I am not a coach, a judge and I can't even tell the difference between one tumbling pass to another. I also feel our coaches are good. Though I will admit, our gymnasts don't get enough conditioning and hands on coaching. But again, I don't know what is standard hands on coaching and how much conditioning is standard. I really do not know. BTW: though I do not have gymnastics skills or knowledge, I have extensive dancing experience and can tell good form, line in space, amplitude, etc.

 

[gymnast88]

I would think its the coaches. Maybe they are not pushing the gymnasts hard enough. Or it could just be having little conditioning, gymnastics takes alot of strength.

 

[gymcoach34]

I would say look at the results of the average talented gymnasts, or even the "less talented" ones. How do those kids look? are they at least doing safe, clean gymnastics?? any decent coach can get the most talented kids to shine, but a GREAT coach can get your "average" talent to shine. I think looking at the less than talented gymnasts of a team tells so much about the coaches and the program.

 

[10.0]

There are nurmerous things you could look for but I have to say the best predicter of the future is the past. Did they have more high level girls in the past? Sometimes gym go through dry spells, but this can also depend on where you live. If you are in a small town or a less competitive state it might be normal. Some gyms are gyms that do indeed compete but are more rec. gyms.

Some things you can look at are the gymnats to coach ratio, Are classes run well? Is it easy to communicate with the owner and your dd's coach? Are there a lot of injuries? Does the coaching look safe? And of course is your dd having fun or is she bored and struggling?

 

[dancengym]

Gymcoach34 and 10.0 and gymnast88, based on your posts, it would seem it is the program or the coaches that are lacking. And my experience with our gym somehow dictates as much. I've always questioned the way practices are run, the ratio does seem problematic. And after having our first meet of the season, a great majority of our gymnasts were at the bottom 3, even our second year level gymnasts. As gymcoach34 indicated "it is easy to make talented gymnasts shine". But sadly none of our average gymnasts shine, actually not even our above-average gymnasts.

I did however post my question largely because I've felt that maybe parents put too much responsibility/blame on the coaches and truly it is the limitation of the gymnast. But certainly the points made in the three previous posts seem like valid ways to make a determination. I guess I just keep posting these questions hoping someone will say you are in the best situation for your DD. You don't have to move. But it seems everyting points to switching. Switching gyms is just too tough. Sorry for the rambling. I am just working things in my head.

 

[gymdog]

Well, if your kid is happy and improving safely, then maybe you are at the right place. Not all programs focus on compulsories. My level 4s probably won't have the best L4 routines around, but the first year level 4s who just started on team are already getting kips. I expect a reasonable standard of routines, particularly on the skills rather than choreo based bars and vault, but at some point I think the demands of competitiveness for compulsories have gotten out of hand to a point. Maybe that's good, but overall there are a LOT of successful gymnasts out there who did compulsories 10 years ago and probably didn't look like they had a clue by the standards of today. My mom had some videos of me where I won first place and it was laughable compared to all the youtube videos I see today. And I turned into a very good, very well coached optional.

Having a L10 who is winning 1st place AA at all meets regardless of her elite status would probably indicate someone knows what they're doing, to me. Now of course most gyms have different upper and lower level coaches so I'm not sure your daughter is getting that attention and perhaps things have changed over the years. But being a strong L10 is an extremely high level and I don't think you should really measure elite status. Often if the gymnast/family is not willing to sacrifice a lot (i.e. school, etc, not to say it isn't a huge sacrifice to be a successful L10 but you have to really up the game to make it as an elite) they probably won't be competitive as an elite...that's just the way that goes. It sounds like your gym is mostly a JO gym that is willing to support elite ambition on occasion, which is fine, but probably not going to produce Olympians.

 

[gymcoach34]

I disagree with the excuse that athletes that are well trained but mostly "uptrained" at the compulsory level will not score well or be successful at the level they are currently competing. If a level 4 can kip correctly, she should be able to put togther a clean, technically correct L4 bar routine.

Its the resposibility of the coach to uptain, but not to the degree an athlete cannot be successful at a current level. (I am thinking of a conversation I had w a coach at a meet once where he was bragging all his L5's could do giants in the straps but NONE of them had a straight arm kip or could cast to horizontal. ) Its not just the uptraining that's important- its the what and how that are important as well.

Dancengym-I think you have been contemplating this switch for a while. I would talk to your daughters coaches, then depending on what they say and what happens I would trust your instincts. I would def hope a parent to come to me w their concerns 1st before switching gyms.

 

[gymdog]

I disagree with the excuse that athletes that are well trained but mostly "uptrained" at the compulsory level will not score well or be successful at the level they are currently competing. If a level 4 can kip correctly, she should be able to put togther a clean, technically correct L4 bar routine.

Its the resposibility of the coach to uptain, but not to the degree an athlete cannot be successful at a current level. (I am thinking of a conversation I had w a coach at a meet once where he was bragging all his L5's could do giants in the straps but NONE of them had a straight arm kip or could cast to horizontal. ) Its not just the uptraining that's important- its the what and how that are important as well.

Dancengym-I think you have been contemplating this switch for a while. I would talk to your daughters coaches, then depending on what they say and what happens I would trust your instincts. I would def hope a parent to come to me w their concerns 1st before switching gyms.

Well I agree for the most part but in some places to get first place the kids have to be like in the 9.5 range. And you have kids who do two seasons of L5 and then move to L7. I'm sure we've all had this frustration. Good enough is barely good enough...but they continue to pick up good skills with good technique. I don't think average performance at L4 and 5 in terms of meets, if they can learn the skills correctly, is necessarily an indicator of anything. That is different than competently doing the routines but not to perfection. As I mentioned, particularly in the solely technique based event where they don't have to remember as much stuff, I have higher standards. But my L4s don't practice as much as many gyms. At some point I feel I have to leave well enough alone and focus on skill development. We're already pushing these kids to compete at fairly young ages.

By no means am I advocating sloppy gymnastics or pushing the kids through the levels. But I do think there is a difference between decent, clean gymnastics through the compulsory levels and picture perfect routines that pull in big scores. Some gyms only select gymnasts who have the potential to score very well, and that's fine. I'm working with some kids who due to age or body type or whatever, would not be on their teams. But aren't doing poorly by any means, however they will not see a lot of the top of the podium. When you have an average hours program and kids who are more "average" then you have to balance skill development with routines, and there's only so much you can do. I have no idea what to tell the OP, because I don't feel like I have enough information about the gym in question to even comment. But that's my take on the situation.

 

[dancengym]

Having a L10 who is winning 1st place AA at all meets regardless of her elite status would probably indicate someone knows what they're doing, to me. Now of course most gyms have different upper and lower level coaches so I'm not sure your daughter is getting that attention and perhaps things have changed over the years. But being a strong L10 is an extremely high level and I don't think you should really measure elite status. Often if the gymnast/family is not willing to sacrifice a lot (i.e. school, etc, not to say it isn't a huge sacrifice to be a successful L10 but you have to really up the game to make it as an elite) they probably won't be competitive as an elite...that's just the way that goes. It sounds like your gym is mostly a JO gym that is willing to support elite ambition on occasion, which is fine, but probably not going to produce Olympians.[/QUOTE]

gymdog, we only have 1 Level 10 and actually, they say she is an senior international elite. She qualified 3 yrs ago into elite status, lost it the next year and then has not qualified since. This young lady is very determined. She works unbelievably hard in the gym; has been home schooled since she was L7 and trains over 30-35 hours a week. And I believe your last sentence says it all as far as the type of our gym. And it is also one of the reasons I like the gym. They are a decent gym and they do support and encourage elite ambition (as they have been telling me my dd may be able to attain).

I just think my DD works unnecessarily hard on her own. For instance, she could not hold her handstand for the longest time. She practices and practices. I finally started reading drills online, suggestions for holding a long and perfect handstand. I showed her what I learned and within a few days, she was holding her handstand 30 seconds. By her tops testing, three weeks later, she was holding it over 60 seconds. Her back was always arched (and so are all the other gymnasts at our gym). The correction was as simple as having my DD lie on her stomach as if doing a handstand and having her contract her stomach and tighten up, etc. I told her this is the form she should try to attain. I also showed her a couple simple drills. My DD is the first to attest that I was the one that helped her hold her handstand. It would be hard for me to believe her coaches did not know this is the right form. I think the problem lies in how they are getting the breakdown of skills across to the gymnasts. I've taught dance and I know there are a million ways to teach a certain skill. If one way/demonstration does not seem to be working, you should try another way. So, now when she has a problem with a skill, I look it up in the internet and get some tips. But why do I need to be doing this?

gymcoach34, we've had just a couple exchanges here in chalk bucket, and if you were my DD's coach, I would have no trouble going to you and expressing my concerns and believe it will be met with an open mind. But not everyone wants to hear the truth or can handle the truth.

I think I am generally o.k. with my DD's gym. Just once in a while, I get very frustrated and I also feel for our girls. I cannot think of one single girl in our gym that does not work hard. Inasmuch as gymnastics is an individual sport, we do want all the girls to do well.

 

[gymdog]

gymdog, we only have 1 Level 10 and actually, they say she is an senior international elite. She qualified 3 yrs ago into elite status, lost it the next year and then has not qualified since. This young lady is very determined. She works unbelievably hard in the gym; has been home schooled since she was L7 and trains over 30-35 hours a week. And I believe your last sentence says it all as far as the type of our gym. And it is also one of the reasons I like the gym. They are a decent gym and they do support and encourage elite ambition (as they have been telling me my dd may be able to attain).

Well, then if it was my kid and it was at that point and feasible, I'd move to another gym, one with a solid elite program. I wouldn't personally want to keep homeschooling and training 35 hours for L10. That's not necessary, in my opinion. I suppose if there's only one L10 then maybe it was just luck but if it's generally a small team then perhaps they can get a kid to a pretty high level in "JO terms" but again that last extra mile is a whole other story. In other words I think there are some gyms and coaches who can get a kid to "pre-elite" status but aren't invested enough or don't have the program infrastructure to get them or keep them on the national team. So you may be fine in such a program up to a point then you have to decide whether you're going to follow the L10/NCAA scholarship (obviously just maintaining through high school is it's own endeavor - and the vast majority of girls who "train elite" at some point either end up there or quit by the end of high school) or push it and go for elite (probably going to require a gym switch unless coaches are super willing to get out there).

And being able to get kids there is something that will "work" for the vast majority of kids. Most gyms in the country will never have an elite gymnast. But I'm still not sure whether this one girl is an anomaly in that she went to a different gym at some point, is a coach's child or some other such thing.

I'm not sure whether you should switch at this point or not. I guess that depends on the level your daughter is training, whether you generally perceive her to be progressing through technically correct gymnastics, and whether it's even feasible to drive to/attend another gym.

 

[jdf]

It's not easy to leave a gym, but i moved my daughter to a gym with better facilities, more highly trained coaches, and a lot more level 9 and 10 girls. it has made a world of difference. If I had to coach my daughter to do a handstand after all of the money and time spent at the gym, I would be livid.

 

[dancengym]

Switching slightly off original post

I'm still not sure whether this one girl is an anomaly in that she went to a different gym at some point, is a coach's child or some other such thing.

I'm not sure whether you should switch at this point or not. I guess that depends on the level your daughter is training, whether you generally perceive her to be progressing through technically correct gymnastics, and whether it's even feasible to drive to/attend another gym.

IDF: I think our coaches are good coaches. But I just think sometimes they have trouble getting breakdown of skills across. And yes, little things like that that pop up every now and again gets me all worked up again.

Gymdog: As far as our L10, we've had several L10s in the past. We've also had one girl make it to the national team in 1999. 2/3 of our team have slowly left the gym over the last 2 years. Our sole L10, past elite, was trained solely in our gym.

My question then now is IF, and that is a big IF, my DD (and it would have to come from her) has aspirations of taking gymnastics as far as she can (I am fully aware of the enormous financial and emotional commitment required of the gymnast and the family to obtain elite status and personally would shy away from it), at what point or gymnastics level should she seriously be looking for an "appropriate" gym and/or at what point or level is it safe to stay at a gym that may not have the potential to take her farther?

 

[gymdog]

If you aren't happy with it now, I don't see anything wrong with moving now if you have the option. Realistically even to make it to L9 or 10 she is going to need to be in an environment that "clicks" with her. It sounds like a lot of girls have left the gym over time, which to me would indicate some kind of coaching or management change that had negative effects. They may or may not be rebounding, I think you'd have to evaluate that. You might casually talk to some parents of level 8-10s about their thoughts. If you're happy "for now" but just concerned about the future you should probably still look ahead, but in general I think if you see it not working out it's better to switch sooner rather than later.

 

[NGL780309]

I just think my DD works unnecessarily hard on her own. For instance, she could not hold her handstand for the longest time. She practices and practices. I finally started reading drills online, suggestions for holding a long and perfect handstand. I showed her what I learned and within a few days, she was holding her handstand 30 seconds. By her tops testing, three weeks later, she was holding it over 60 seconds. Her back was always arched (and so are all the other gymnasts at our gym). The correction was as simple as having my DD lie on her stomach as if doing a handstand and having her contract her stomach and tighten up, etc. I told her this is the form she should try to attain. I also showed her a couple simple drills. My DD is the first to attest that I was the one that helped her hold her handstand. It would be hard for me to believe her coaches did not know this is the right form. I think the problem lies in how they are getting the breakdown of skills across to the gymnasts. I've taught dance and I know there are a million ways to teach a certain skill. If one way/demonstration does not seem to be working, you should try another way. So, now when she has a problem with a skill, I look it up in the internet and get some tips. But why do I need to be doing this?

I feel your frustration dancengym with a gym that doesn't seen to correct things. It sounds just like my DD's former gym. I would see so many things that I knew they could easily fix if they would just say something to her and take the time to do it. It was like that for preteam and then in Level 4. While she could do all the Level 4 skills easily, she lacked the polish. She didn't compete this year because she is only 5, but I knew if she competed she would be scoring poorly just like her teammates.

We switched just a few weeks ago and the difference is amazing. They actually take the time to help her. It was amazing to me how quickly they have been able to fix things. For example DD's split leap and jump on floor have always been quite ugly. In ONE day in less than 10 minutes they fixed this. Her back leg was always lower than her front leg. It looks so great now. So I look back and wonder why the coaches at her old gym couldn't have taken a few minutes and actually fixed these little things. Did they not care? Did they not know how to teach it? The same goes for many other skills. She now has a really good handstand held on beam and her vault is so much better. She couldn't really hold a handstand on floor either. They actually never worked on it. Just a few practices and she's holding handstands and walking on her hands.

My biggest regret is not switching a year ago. I had thought about it because it didn't look to me like her level or level 4 were getting very good instruction, but she was really just a beginner so it seemed silly to switch gyms. It seems like you notice something is lacking and you are probably right. We are so happy at the new gym.

 

[gymmomof1]

I would say look at the results of the average talented gymnasts, or even the "less talented" ones. How do those kids look? are they at least doing safe, clean gymnastics?? any decent coach can get the most talented kids to shine, but a GREAT coach can get your "average" talent to shine. I think looking at the less than talented gymnasts of a team tells so much about the coaches and the program.

Gymcoach34 this is exactly what our head coach said to me about her own coaching, she said exactly what you said about getting the average kids to shine is the sign of a good coach. So making those corrections are important to clean gymnastics and if the coaches don't inforce it the scores will be lower.
Dancengym, if you can look at other gyms in your area and see how they are working with the girls, are they all always getting corrections from the coach when they are practice, getting the form correct during practice. Its always worth a look