Parents Abuse vs motivation

[JessMom]

I'm curious. Where do you think the line is?

Is the line in the language used? Is it in the reaction / effect on the gymnast?

I know there are many parents, in all sports, that have the mindset - as long as we win it's all good.

I'll be the first to admit my daughter has been yelled a but it was in the same way I would have yelled at her. She was upset but things needed to be said to her and she needed to hear them. They motivated her. But what if it hadn't motivated her?

If you watch Dance Moms (don't judge me - I have a love/hate relationship with that horrible show)
They have a "make" / "break" survey thing going on. When things happen they ask at the bottom of the screen for people to tweet Make or Break. Is what is happening making the dancer or breaking the dancer and the responses are always so mixed.

What are your thoughts on coaches, how would you determine that fine line?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you can't...but it's a fine line.

 

[cbifoja]

I think each child has a line. Some kids are very sensitive and you can really hurt them with a cruel word. Some kids have thicker skin and can tolerate more. My child has had some pretty harsh things said to her in the gym but I also know that she has thick skin because I purposely tease her so she doesn't get her feelings hurt easily.

But we have another girl on our team who is a very gentle, quiet child. If she was told that she looked like an animal carcass, as my daughter was told, she would have been very upset. Mine just kind of grimaced and went on. So it didn't feel like abuse to my child but might have to the other child's mother.

Now, what I do NOT like is when a coach is yelling, and yes, I do mean yelling at a kid because it usually is accompanied by public humiliation, That's not okay with me. When the whole gym stops and watches a child get dressed down.....no. I don't know that this is enough to change gym, but it certainly warrants a conversation with a coach.

 

[beamer]

Yes cbifoja.

The line is humiliation/shaming.

My gymnast is a third child and has a very, very thick skin. She has never been a cryer, is not sensitive to criticism (sometimes to her detriment), and has never been afraid of the rough and tumble (so to speak) -- physical or emotional.

On the eve of her very first meet as an (old) L4 her (old) coach said to her quietly, "You'll be lucky to get a 6 on that floor routine." DD shrugged and moved on.

During the next few years, there was fairly regular snide commentary along those lines. But it wasn't until there was a very loud, very public dressing down -- in which DD's teammates were cringing -- that she had had enough.

As I have noted here many times, we stayed at DD's first gym much too long, precisely because our gymnast is not the sensitive type and didn't even bother to tell us half of the sort of unproductive harassment that was happening regularly.

She made the decision to move and now we see what firm and fair coaching is all about. I can tell you with 100 percent certainly that with a gymnast who is hard-working and attentive to safety it never involves public humiliation.

 

[thefellowsmom]

I agree that this is so specific to the child. We are in a very strict gym but it is also balanced with a lot of love. Some kids in our gym are very happy and see mostly the love and some kids aren't handling it very well as they get up the higher levels as they see only the strict. There are kids that may take the same statement or situation as meaning they are terrible and worthless and others that will let it roll right off and take what the need from it and then every kid in between that.

I also think it makes a big difference how the parent handles things and what message they clarify with their kids.

When my child comes home saying a coach said this or that or did this or that, we talk through what the situation was, what she felt the coach was trying to tell her or teach her, how she contributed to the situation, where the coach may have gone over a line and what she needed to take from it. Then I tell her to learn as much as she can from what they say as they are telling her in there somewhere what they are expecting from her and to let the rest of it go. I remind her that everyone gets frustrated and sometimes coaches don't always handle things perfectly just like parents don't or she doesn't with her friends sometimes.

This could go a totally different way if she came home and I got really upset and started talking about how unfair that is and how she is perfect and she shouldn't listen to that and doesn't have to put up with that and no adult should speak to her that way and I am going to call the coach right now and rip them a new one.

There are, of course, a full spectrum of parent reaction as well, but I think we can have a huge impact on how our child handles critical feedback. We can empower them and show them they are in control of their emotions and how others can effect them, that they hold ownership over their successes and failures and that they own how they feel about themselves and their gymnastics or we can show them that others determine their worth and that they are victims.

Now, I would say there is a line that coaches can and do cross and that line is different for every kid and every parent. Not every philosophy or style is right for every kid or family. It has to be a good match.

And where I would have some problems would be with blatant public humiliation or a non-balance of love and support and of course anything physical. But from a "yelling" or "critical" standpoint, it just depends on tolerance and framing.

My kid has full understanding that if the head coach comes marching over away from his own group of gymnasts to "yell" at her and correct what she is doing or make her take it one step further that even though it might be a little scary this means she is doing a good job, not a bad one. Or if her coach is spending extra time working one something, it may seem like they are upset or yelling or being critical because they are giving correction after correction, but she knows that this means that she is making the corrections and making progress and he felt she could make a stride if he pushed her a bit. If she was doing poorly they wouldn't be giving her the time of day. More corrections and higher expectations means they think you can handle more.

But it is a fine line for sure. I think the mom/parent gut about what you see in the gym and what you see in your child is the best indicator of what side of the line they are sitting on.

But, what may be a game stopper, gym changing situation for one kid could be just the motivation they need for another so judgement should be kept to your own circumstances unless blatant abuse is happening.

 

[thefellowsmom]

@beamer, we were posting at the same time.

I think you brought up a really interesting point and something I may need to pay attention to as well. Some kids can take it, but that doesn't always mean it isn't affecting them.

Yet another reason for teaching them young how to identify the meaning and intensity of their feelings. I am glad that your daughter was able to identify where her line was. God, parenting is tricky.

The personal tearing down is where it really starts to bother me as well, especially if it were done in front of everyone. Also, if my kid was coming home crying and feeling bad about herself or worse, saying nothing at all but retreating inside herself, that would be a huge red flag for me that that is not the right coach for my kid.

 

[Natalia]

Adult professional scenario.

Case 1 "Hello Mary,please take a seat.First I want to congratulate you on the excellent relationship you have established with so many of our customers.You have been complimented for the original approach to solving a variety of our customers needs.

You're helping our small company retain our customers,that is a vital skill and I appreciate your talent.

The new CRM is proving to be a bit more of a challenge then expected,would you like to go over its different input functions with me ,when you have the time?I don't really like administrative duties of sales myself,but it is a necessary evil"

Sceanario 2 "Mary,a quick word,I 've noticed you haven't updated the recent deals you closed,we're a small company,if you think you're such a hot shot sales person that you deserve a personal assistant to get YOUR job done,well you don't have much of a future here"

Be constructive,nuture talent,it's fun.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Firm, stern, factual, you are capable and just do it (yes angry sometimes). Not mean, belittling or personal.

 

[bookworm]

I really don't think the line is that fine at all or specific to any child....if you have to think about "is it abusive or not?" , then it probably is, regardless of who the child is...just because a kid has "thick skin" doesn't mean that she should be subject to having more lousy comments directed her way until she finally says "uncle" ...just like you know when you should leave a gym. you know when it's abusive...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i've heard a lot in my career. to dovetail off of Natalia in which i have heard more than once:

Coach: i can see you're struggling a bit. let's up your conditioning for the next 3 weeks and see if it helps. you know Suzie, the body undergoes lots of changes daily. sometimes you just have to do a bit more work. hopefully, that will end your frustration.

Coach 2: you're fat. well, your fat. you are what you eat. you'll never do that (insert skill) because you're just too fat. now leave.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I really don't think the line is that fine at all or specific to any child....if you have to think about "is it abusive or not?" , then it probably is, regardless of who the child is...just because a kid has "thick skin" doesn't mean that she should be subject to having more lousy comments directed her way until she finally says "uncle" ...just like you know when you should leave a gym. you know when it's abusive...

i generally agree. but i am a coach. i have heard coaches say to a gymnast "you suck" or "it sucks to be you". but i certainly could tell the difference in their tone and the reaction of the athlete. 1 stood mortified while the other was laughing with their coach at the situation.

like i said, it's a fine line and dependent on the situation and tone of the coach. certainly, if the outside world heard either they would be appalled. and i'm not talking about witnessing this with 10 year olds. mostly teenagers.

then there are the teenagers that in frustration blurt out "i suck". i never agree or disagree with them at that moment. they're pissed. so i just calmly ask "do you need some help so that you don't think that you suck all day?" we've got (insert however many events are left in practice) and it would be useful if you get something productive done other than you thinking that you suck".

 

[Gymsanity]

Heads up folks, if someone is abusing your child in any form or fashion, you best be moving on! You can NEVER justify yelling as motivating. The only time I have ever 'yelled' at a child is if they were doing something unsafe (double bouncing, throwing a big trick without permission or a safety spot, etc). A 'real' coach would never resort to that sort of petty BS. One thing I hate about gymnastics is that any Joe Blow can put up a sign and say 'Gymnastics Coach.' You yell or humiliate when you have run out of constructive ideas, and your mental bank is bankrupt.
When I hire new coaches I tell them that I have two steadfast rules:
Rule 1: Coach the kids the way you would want to be coached.
Rule 2: We are in the business of correction, not criticism. (the difference between them is huge)
If anyone is yelling, screaming, belittling, humiliating, embarrassing, or in any other way making your child feel bad about themselves, get away because you are not at a real gym!

 

[Seeker]

Totally agree....so much goes into it and we have to remember these are long-standing relationships, so there is a lot of buildup to whatever happens on any given day. My DD's relationship with her coach is hers, not mine. They both need to own it. It also changes quite a bit over time...her coach met her when she was an 8yrs/L4/2nd grader who still rode in a car seat and now she's 10yrs/L7/big 4th grader...she's changed and matured a lot over that time and their relationship has changed too. But they managed to move from L4 to L7 in 2 yrs time, so that says something good about how well they work together.

I am very grateful that her coach is both kind and tough at the same time though. My DD rarely cries and her coach is not abusive in any way. She will call you out if you're not applying a correction, but the tone and delivery make it "all in a days work" rather than "holy crap she's really mad". If that we're not the case and there was a lot of yelling and crying, there is no way I would keep my child in that environment long term. Even if she weren't the one being yelled at, it would still have an impact on her and would upset her (cuz who knows when the tables would be turned).

There is another team in our gym that has a "yelling coach" and DD has already said "I would never want a coach like that. I'd rather do something else than listen to that everyday." I would agree with that.

 

[thefellowsmom]

I would like to clarify that my daughter has never been belittled or truly yelled at or ever told she wasn't good enough or capable. She has never once come home from practice in tears or not wanted to go to practice, not even once. Whew! OK, that's out of the way

That's what all the quotes were for. "Yelling" and "critical" are very squishy terms and how a 7 year old, 9 year old, 11 year old, 13 year old, 16 year old, sensitive or tough child or parent interpret the same thing a coach is saying will be entirely different. One may view it as yelling and mortifying and another as just fine or even motivating.

Ultimately gymnastics should be building self-esteem and confidence. If that isn't happening for a kid then it is probably time to start looking elsewhere. The life lessons of gymnastics are so much more important than winning and in addition to believing in yourself and having confidence in your abilities and the discipline to act on your dreams those lessons also include learning how to push past fears, take responsibility for their successes and failures and take, dare I say, critical feedback.

And I love that seeker brought up long-standing relationships. Many of these kids have been working with their coaches over a very long period of time, mine since she was 4 years old and many of these teenagers for 10 plus years. They are complex relationships filled with love and accomplishment and teamwork and victory and failure and conflict and struggle and frustrations. What they are trying to do together is very difficult and I don't think you can compare it to an employer/employee relationship.

This is personal and trust is critical to everyone's safety and emotional well-being. Any decent coach would never undermine the trust between them and their gymnast on purpose and if they are then yes run for the flipping hills and if they are too dense to know they are then that warrants running too. But that doesn't mean that an amazing coach in a long-term relationship with a gymnast isn't going to say the wrong thing in frustration once in a while.

Does everyone always say the perfect thing to their child in frustrating and challenging moments? I certainly know I don't.

 

[Sasha]

I would say anything that is a 'personal put down' of the gymnast would not be productive, and could be abusive. I would not want my DD with a coach who said things like....

Examples: "You'll never be very good. You might as well quit now. You're too fat/slow/weak/stupid. You'll never be as good as Susie. I don't want to look at you - I'm too frustrated to work with you - you never learn anything I tell you."

Conversely, these would be OK: "You're not going to achieve [skill] until you learn to [correction]. Now let's try again. You're consistently not getting enough speed on vault. We need to work on your conditioning/strength/etc. "

I'm also OK with personal comments that are half funny like "Stop walking like that - you look like a robot (yes coach said this to my DD who was not offended). "

I'm also OK with 'yelling' like a personal trainer yells at her/his athlete to go faster, dig deeper, don't stop, don't give up, etc.

I'm OK with 'yelling' to reinforce corrections that keep being forgotten...
Examples "The next time I see your knees bent on that [skill] you're doing 50 pushups!!! Knees!!! You can do better!!!! Faster everybody!! You're all running too slow!!! No more robot arms!!!"

And perhaps depending on the kid/relationship, I'm OK with yelling to motivate, such as "Stop crying and get back on that beam!!! Everyone falls, get used to it and get back up there!!!"

And I'm OK with group-directed comments such as "None of you seem to be paying attention today!! I see a lot of sloppiness out there!! If you want to place at [event], you're going to have to work MUCH harder at [x]!!!"

We have a 'yelling' coach who sounds like one of those personal trainers on the Biggest Loser most of the time. But my DD responds better to her than the 'nice' quiet coach. My DD does NOT want 'yelling coach' catching her with bent knees(!!), so she does make more effort to keep form, for example. She loves both coaches, but she does seem to improve more with yelling coach.

*Yelling coach ALSO compliments good work, but sparingly so that it is truly appreciated when it is handed out. Nice coach says 'good job' after just about everything, so perhaps less correcting is being reinforced....

 

[Faith]

Also, a culture of fear in a gym is abusive.

Being so scared of a coach that you'll do whatever skill he wants, rather than trusting him to know what you're capable of. This may mean *your* child has never been actually yelled at, but if they've witnessed others publicly humiliated or shouted at...

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Being so scared of a coach that you'll do whatever skill he wants, rather than trusting him to know what you're capable of. This may mean *your* child has never been actually yelled at, but if they've witnessed others publicly humiliated or shouted at...[/quote]
=
Seriously folks.... A tough sport requires a little toughness just like football, hockey, mma etc.....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

but i don't think verbal or emotional abuse is necessary. i've seen/been around a ton of good coaches and athletes over the years. and those coaches are still around. must be a reason why.

and yes, i know there are exceptions to this unfortunately.

 

[Aussie_coach]

There should not even be a question as to where the line is. In our gyms there should be no such thing as negative motivation, because it is the worst possible way to motivate a child (or an adult for that matter).

Yelling at kids is not motivation, saying negative things to kids is not motivation, telling kids they are not good enough is not motivation, withholding praise is not motivation.

Think about it from an adults perspective. Let's say the only reason you want to do well in your job is so you don't lose your job, you have a negative motivation. You will only do just enough work to avoid getting fired. It if you believe in baht you are doing, love your job and feel you are good at it you will go above and beyond.

the same goes for our gymnasts, if they do their conditioning because they are afraid of getting in trouble then they will do just enough to not get in trouble. Of they do it because they love the sport, want to do better and feel good about themselves then they will be the kid who does more push ups than you ask for.

There should never be a reason to say negative things to your gymnast at all. Coaching is not about bringing them down, it is about lifting them up. Confident kids win more medals anyway. You aren't telling kids they are doing it wrong, you are teaching them how to be better.

Instead of saying "you are not jumping high enough", say " If you jump higher you will nail that skill".

Coaches focus so much on the one thing the gymnast is doing wrong and don't see the hundred things they are doing right.

Focus on why its good to do things better not how bad it looks. Ie instead of "Everytime you forget to point your toes you lose 0.1". Say eveytime you remember to point your toes you get 0.1 more than the person who forgot".

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Heads up folks, if someone is abusing your child in any form or fashion, you best be moving on! You can NEVER justify yelling as motivating. The only time I have ever 'yelled' at a child is if they were doing something unsafe (double bouncing, throwing a big trick without permission or a safety spot, etc). A 'real' coach would never resort to that sort of petty BS. One thing I hate about gymnastics is that any Joe Blow can put up a sign and say 'Gymnastics Coach.' You yell or humiliate when you have run out of constructive ideas, and your mental bank is bankrupt.
When I hire new coaches I tell them that I have two steadfast rules:
Rule 1: Coach the kids the way you would want to be coached.
Rule 2: We are in the business of correction, not criticism. (the difference between them is huge)
If anyone is yelling, screaming, belittling, humiliating, embarrassing, or in any other way making your child feel bad about themselves, get away because you are not at a real gym!

in bold is profoundly true.