Parents Bars skills

[MuggleMom]

Exactly why level 5 is so important for bar development

I know this is a popular opinion especially on here but level 6 will be better for my daughter in the long run. I dont care if she spends 2+ years at level 6 to gain bar strength--and truly her bars are not that weak she just started learning free hips 2 months ago. Compulsories just dont play to her strengths and even her coaches were like we cant wait for her to be an optional. That's why I like the new level 6 you can use it like level 5 if you aren't in a rush to get to level 10 (which she's not). I think pushing from 4 to 7 can be a big adjustment and only for special cases but you do tend to see that a lot as well. For our team girls they still have the free hip in thier level 6 routine she will still need to get her skills up and strong before they move anyone to 7 so to me it can be used the same way as 5.

 

[mommyof1]

My daughter says the tricky thing about the free hip is the wrist shift. She found the transition from strap bar to the real bar challenging because "the strap bar does the wrist shift automatically for you." She says opening the shoulders is the key to getting to handstand.

I wonder a lot about L5 v. L6 because of bars. My daughter would like to ask to test out of L5 and go to L6 because she prefers the L6 vault and wants an optional floor routine tailored to her strengths, but she says her gym competes an easier bar routine at L6 than at L5 with no free hip. At her old gym, L6 would have been much better just because of uptraining. At her new gym, L5 and up practice together with different assignments, and I get the impression that the assignments are more individualized. They also have a kid who is going from L5 straight to L7, so that might be a possibility next year. Apart from the vault issue, I suspect that L5 might be best for her long-term development, even though she is going to get hammered on the vault score and possibly floor as well.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I know this is a popular opinion especially on here but level 6 will be better for my daughter in the long run. I dont care if she spends 2+ years at level 6

I can only speak to a sample size. But based on the 6 kids at our gym...

One did 5 with a brief time at 6
One did 5 for a season then 6/7
4- scored out of 5 did 6/7
All 6 did 7, where the one who did 5 out scored them all AA and Bars

This past season all 6 were first year L8. Mine, the level 5, was injured and still doesn't have her giant because of that injury.

The meet she competed, she beat the other 5 on bars with a fall. Her form is just that much better. The parents were stunned. That was an uncomfortable moment from my seat. I expect her and the other girl who spent more time at 5 to be the kids to beat next year as the group become 2nd year 8s, if they were to start competing today, when it comes to bars. But as they are all up training and various points of growth spurts/puberty, that may change.

Compulsories just dont play to her strengths

JMO, compulsories are not meant to play to their strengths. Compulsories are designed to build their strength on the basics and key elements.

Level 5 is tough level. And there is a lot there that is meant to help them and build a foundation in optionals.

It was very disappointing at first for my kid to be the one they wouldn't allow to score out. And as a parent who is rather ignorant on the details it took me a while to understand it. But those tap swings and backward ext/roll.... etc... all have value. Seeing her improvement. She went from being the lowest bar scorer in L4 of the group. To the highest in L7. She and I would both say, yes L5 was hard but it help her gymnastics.

2 of those parents who were so happy their kids escaped competing 5, in hindsight would rather they stayed back.

For me in hindsight I would of rather mine did 5, no 6, and 2 years at 7.

Again small size but have seen the time from L4-L8 first hand, handled different ways.

L5 has a lot of value. And it comes down to giving the kids what they need to succeed.

 

[CLgym]

I wonder a lot about L5 v. L6 because of bars.

My DD did L6 (scored out of L5) -- and I actually think L6 bars prepared her well for L7. Her L6 routine was kip-straddle cast to handstand, free-hip (horizontal), squat on jump to high bar, kip-straddle cast to handstand, layout flyaway. Almost every L6 routine we saw did a free hip, and a few even had giants. Mine went on to have a very successful L7 bars season -- hitting 9.9 once, and taking first in Regionals on bars -- despite no L5 bars (except to score out, of course).

A clear circling element is required at Level 6. Really the main difference is no baby giants or tap swings in L6. I suppose the lack of baby giants/tap swings could arguably make it more difficult to get real giants -- although that did not prove to be true for my DD. A good bars coach should be working tap swings like crazy around this level anyway. On the flip side, gymnasts can start competing straddle casts to handstand and layouts from handstand earlier. So maybe a toss up?

 

[MuggleMom]

The reason I say it doesnt play to her strengths is for Floor and Beam she gets so many text errors she has never excelled at doing the routine in the EXACT way prescribed. Bars was always her strongest event because no text errors you hit the skill you hit the angle you get a good score. I think she would have been killed on level 5 beam and that would have killed her confidence. We had a whole group of girls do level 5 two years ago and of the 5-6 that did it only 1 is still in the sport most quit after that level 5 year. Granted for some of them it was injuries but I could see how frustrated they were with the scores and yet another year of compulsories. I will grant you the one who made it out may be a stronger rising level 7 for it but I see no reason my daughter cant be successful doing 2 years of level 6 if needed.

For all the talk of its an individual journey and every girl is on her own path people seem pretty sure that skipping level 5 is wrong for everyone and setting you up for being a weak bar worker. I am just saying I don't think that's the case for every kid.

 

[mommyof1]

A clear circling element is required at Level 6. Really the main difference is no baby giants or tap swings in L6.

So that is what I thought. I am guessing my kid must be wrong about what's in her gym's L6 bar routine.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The reason I say it doesnt play to her strengths is for Floor and Beam she gets so many text errors she has never excelled at doing the routine in the EXACT way prescribed. Bars was always her strongest event because no text errors you hit the skill you hit the angle you get a good score. I think she would have been killed on level 5 beam and that would have killed her confidence. We had a whole group of girls do level 5 two years ago and of the 5-6 that did it only 1 is still in the sport most quit after that level 5 year. Granted for some of them it was injuries but I could see how frustrated they were with the scores and yet another year of compulsories. I will grant you the one who made it out may be a stronger rising level 7 for it but I see no reason my daughter cant be successful doing 2 years of level 6 if needed.

For all the talk of its an individual journey and every girl is on her own path people seem pretty sure that skipping level 5 is wrong for everyone and setting you up for being a weak bar worker. I am just saying I don't think that's the case for every kid.

I guess the difference is what the measure of successful is.

Our concern wasn't scores or looking at them as a measure of success, but what would help her gymnastics long term.

From a score standpoint. This year scoring is a bit of concern as there is a possibility of a regional spot. That wasn't the case in 5/6.

As far as what wrong for everyone. I was pretty clear I was just speaking to how I have seen it go at our gym and with my kid.

In fact I ended it with it comes down to giving the kid what they need to succeed.

 

[GymDadWA]

I can only speak to a sample size. But based on the 6 kids at our gym...

One did 5 with a brief time at 6
One did 5 for a season then 6/7
4- scored out of 5 did 6/7
All 6 did 7, where the one who did 5 out scored them all AA and Bars

This past season all 6 were first year L8. Mine, the level 5, was injured and still doesn't have her giant because of that injury.

The meet she competed, she beat the other 5 on bars with a fall. Her form is just that much better. The parents were stunned. That was an uncomfortable moment from my seat. I expect her and the other girl who spent more time at 5 to be the kids to beat next year as the group become 2nd year 8s, if they were to start competing today, when it comes to bars. But as they are all up training and various points of growth spurts/puberty, that may change.



JMO, compulsories are not meant to play to their strengths. Compulsories are designed to build their strength on the basics and key elements.

Level 5 is tough level. And there is a lot there that is meant to help them and build a foundation in optionals.

It was very disappointing at first for my kid to be the one they wouldn't allow to score out. And as a parent who is rather ignorant on the details it took me a while to understand it. But those tap swings and backward ext/roll.... etc... all have value. Seeing her improvement. She went from being the lowest bar scorer in L4 of the group. To the highest in L7. She and I would both say, yes L5 was hard but it help her gymnastics.

2 of those parents who were so happy their kids escaped competing 5, in hindsight would rather they stayed back.

For me in hindsight I would of rather mine did 5, no 6, and 2 years at 7.

Again small size but have seen the time from L4-L8 first hand, handled different ways.

L5 has a lot of value. And it comes down to giving the kids what they need to succeed.

My DD will be going through a similar path as yours, former HC preferred to skip 5 and go to 6, new HC wants them to all compete 5 to build up a better foundation. What is difficult for us is that our DD got stuck in the middle where she was planning on testing out like the older girls, excited for her "own" routines, and now has to go back to compulsories that just isn't as exciting for her. Hearing that it did work to make your DD better makes me feel a bit better about the whole situation that I don't feel was handled well.

 

[claudidoll]

I can only speak to a sample size. But based on the 6 kids at our gym...

One did 5 with a brief time at 6
One did 5 for a season then 6/7
4- scored out of 5 did 6/7
All 6 did 7, where the one who did 5 out scored them all AA and Bars

This past season all 6 were first year L8. Mine, the level 5, was injured and still doesn't have her giant because of that injury.

The meet she competed, she beat the other 5 on bars with a fall. Her form is just that much better. The parents were stunned. That was an uncomfortable moment from my seat. I expect her and the other girl who spent more time at 5 to be the kids to beat next year as the group become 2nd year 8s, if they were to start competing today, when it comes to bars. But as they are all up training and various points of growth spurts/puberty, that may change.



JMO, compulsories are not meant to play to their strengths. Compulsories are designed to build their strength on the basics and key elements.

Level 5 is tough level. And there is a lot there that is meant to help them and build a foundation in optionals.

It was very disappointing at first for my kid to be the one they wouldn't allow to score out. And as a parent who is rather ignorant on the details it took me a while to understand it. But those tap swings and backward ext/roll.... etc... all have value. Seeing her improvement. She went from being the lowest bar scorer in L4 of the group. To the highest in L7. She and I would both say, yes L5 was hard but it help her gymnastics.

2 of those parents who were so happy their kids escaped competing 5, in hindsight would rather they stayed back.

For me in hindsight I would of rather mine did 5, no 6, and 2 years at 7.

Again small size but have seen the time from L4-L8 first hand, handled different ways.

L5 has a lot of value. And it comes down to giving the kids what they need to succeed.

Did your daughter do level 5 before the level 6 requirements changed this year? If so then it’s not a fair comparison

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Did your daughter do level 5 before the level 6 requirements changed this year? If so then it’s not a fair comparison

Yes I have no idea what the 6 cuurent requirements are beyond the change in vault. Do they require the basics that 5 does? For example tap swings and back extension/roll on floor?

 

[CLgym]

Speaking only about bars, new L6 is arguably easier bc casts no longer need to hit handstand. Still no tap swings on bars (in fact, I believe extra swings like that are actually a deduction).

 

[3rd_time_around]

Speaking only about bars, new L6 is arguably easier bc casts no longer need to hit handstand. Still no tap swings on bars (in fact, I believe extra swings like that are actually a deduction).

Do you mean easier than 5? Because the cast SR for 6 is 45 degrees above horizontal and for 5 it’s just above horizontal. It’s easier than 7, but not 5.

 

[claudidoll]

Do you mean easier than 5? Because the cast SR for 6 is 45 degrees above horizontal and for 5 it’s just above horizontal. It’s easier than 7, but not 5.

Yeah no tap swings but the flyaway is out of a cast that must be above 45.

No required back extension but since it’s an optional level I guess it could be in there, though they do work on that in 3 and 4. Leaps must be 180 in 6 vs the 150 in 5.

And on beam 6 must have a skill with flight or a series, leaps at 180 and an A dismount,

But I digress away from bars

I believe they changed 6 to be more progressive but that could just be me

 

[LJL07]

I know this is a popular opinion especially on here but level 6 will be better for my daughter in the long run. I dont care if she spends 2+ years at level 6 to gain bar strength--and truly her bars are not that weak she just started learning free hips 2 months ago. Compulsories just dont play to her strengths and even her coaches were like we cant wait for her to be an optional. That's why I like the new level 6 you can use it like level 5 if you aren't in a rush to get to level 10 (which she's not). I think pushing from 4 to 7 can be a big adjustment and only for special cases but you do tend to see that a lot as well. For our team girls they still have the free hip in thier level 6 routine she will still need to get her skills up and strong before they move anyone to 7 so to me it can be used the same way as 5.

I think going from 4 to 6 is reasonable. The bars on 5 really are a great progression leading to optionals. But some kids thrive going to 6, and honestly, 5 can be kind of boring (the floor music kills me). I do NOT like the jump from 4 to 7 having lived through it (almost) twice. I just don't think it is a good idea unless the child is in a well-established fast track program with a coach who really knows what he/she is doing. My oldest daughter did great score wise on 7, but what I have seen happen over and over with a skip from 4 to 7 with just any kid who is rushed through those levels is that the kids start to crater on level 8. This could just be specific to an inexperienced coach, but that is what I have witnessed with that jump.

Re: the clear hip. It's hard. Both of my daughters actually got their giants faster than the clear hip. Interestingly, I later heard that some gyms won't even let them start giants until they have a clear hip, but that was not the case for my kids. The clear hip to handstand is basically a back extension roll on the bars and involves some kind of wrist shift that I know nothing about. It's totally normal for it to take time.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The clear hip to handstand is basically a back extension roll on the bars and involves some kind of wrist shift that I know nothing about. It's totally normal for it to take time.

Thats where that back extension on the floor in 5 is there for. It’s essentially a bar drill.

 

[CLgym]

Do you mean easier than 5? Because the cast SR for 6 is 45 degrees above horizontal and for 5 it’s just above horizontal. It’s easier than 7, but not 5.

Neither. I was responding to the immediately prior post regarding the 2018 changes to L6 -- and noting that for bars the changes actually resulted in arguably easier requirements (not true for all events!). So comparing L6 to itself (pre vs post 2018 rule changes). Sorry that my post was confusing....

 

[claudidoll]

the changes to 6 did up the difficulty requirement for the dismount which just made sense if you have to do a flyaway in 5 I never understood why post 2018 6 didn’t require similar


Honestly my daughters gym used 6 before the changes as a dumping ground for kids not progressing, in Canada we don’t have xcel. So it took a lot to convince her that with the changes that wasn’t the case anymore that it’s now a progressive level. So still a bit touchy on the subject but that’s my baggage

 

[CLgym]

@claudidoll — That’s right! I forgot about the dismount changing. And as I said earlier, my DD went on to have a very solid L7 bars season following L6 (not 5). So I wouldn’t worry...... Honestly, in my opinion, the routines a gymnast competes a handful of times each season matter less than the day-to-day training they receive.

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

@claudidoll —Honestly, in my opinion, the routines a gymnast competes a handful of times each season matter less than the day-to-day training they receive.

Amen. My child may never do a back extension roll in competition, but that doesn't mean she hasn't been training them continuously since she was 5 years old.

 

[mommyof1]

@claudidoll Honestly, in my opinion, the routines a gymnast competes a handful of times each season matter less than the day-to-day training they receive.

The issue is that at some gyms, the day-to-day training a gymnast receives depends on the level she competes. That was the case at my daughter's former gym.