MAG Compulsory divisions bonus questions

[Madden3]

I am curious how coaches are handling the new bonus/no bonus divisions in compulsory levels. Specifically, how many bonuses are they requiring a gymnast to have in order to compete Division 1 rather than 2, and why, if you know.

Also anyone know if a gymnast can loose points on a bonus element if competing Div 2?

Thanks!

 

[notthatmom]

This is the first I've heard of this. Interested and following.

 

[samsmama]

We are at a decent-size gym and there has been zero mention of bonus/non-bonus divisions. Our boys are expected to have nearly all the bonuses to compete a given level, though, so I think the coach is just ignoring the whole thing. We are hosting a boys' meet next month, and I am very curious to see if/how it will be handled there.

 

[notthatmom]

I just realized this was posted in MAG.....ignore me

 

[skschlag]

I have overheard our coach talking about kids being in the bonus/non-bonus divisions, or just competing down a level. I am not yet sure how it is all playing out since we are so new to the gym. Same questions apply at the JO/JD levels. This season is going to be interesting for sure.

 

[MrsAnderson]

I'm not quite sure how the whole darn thing works but I know the coach said my child will be competing with NO bonus skills because he does not have ALL the bonus skills.

 

[profmom]

Our coach is starting everyone off in no bonus. They will move to bonus once they have something in the neighborhood of 2-3 bonuses on all events. I am not sure how this will work in practice, but I thought the intent of the rules was for athletes in the no bonus division to compete routines without the bonuses.

 

[gymboymom]

Our coach is starting everyone off in no bonus. They will move to bonus once they have something in the neighborhood of 2-3 bonuses on all events. I am not sure how this will work in practice, but I thought the intent of the rules was for athletes in the no bonus division to compete routines without the bonuses.

I feel this kind of defeats the purpose since with all the bonus skills they could probably compete the next level up with no bonus skills. But then again, anyone know what the 2 divisions is trying to accomplish?

 

[Juniper311]

Division 2 is kind of like an attempt at Xcel-like "ease off the pressure while still staying in competition" path for boys.

 

[MensTeamCoach]

As a competitive coach for many years I feel that the emphasis of the routines should always slant toward the base routine (no bonuses). The bonus skills are there for those gymnasts that have that extra skill a little earlier than expected in their development in that level. The intent should never be "you must have bonus skills to compete at Level whatever." If that were the case then those skills really aren't bonus anymore. I tell my kids and parents all the time this:

"Bonus skills are like extra credit should be in school. It was never meant to be for kids to catch up. It is for those kids that already have a good grade but aren't quite ready to move up to the new grade. If they are ready to move-up then they should do just that. If extra credit were required to get a good grade, then it isn't really extra credit is it? Bonus skills in their gymnastics routine should only be performed when they already have the good score and aren't quite ready to move up to the next level."

My philosophy is also that the boys should only perform a bonus skill if it can be performed close to flawlessly.

I feel that overall the coaches out there have shifted USAG's intentions on bonus skills to inflate their scores and win trophies. The boys should compete at the level they are ready for, not in a lower one just to win awards.

I personally will be starting out all of my boys in division 2 and once they have demonstrated they can compete the base routine and achieve a "good" score then I will determine if they should move to division 1. Of course as always I have boys training the bonus skills, any good coach should, but just because you are training them doesn't mean you should compete them.

 

[Sasha]

I could be wrong since I have no actual insider info, but it seems to me like the intention is twofold:

1) Create more equity in competition in the lower levels, given:
- the vast differences in training programs (4-6 hour L5's vs 16-20-hour L5's)
- nearly all boys will repeat one or more lower levels (even the superstars, due to age), so "first year vs. second year" Div II and Div I gives coaches a framework for this kind of progression for the average athlete (more advanced athletes can jump into Div I).
- the vast differences in maturity and readiness in younger boys (body control, focus..)
- the trend for boys to want to play more than 1 sport (relates to lower hours above)
- there are fewer awards given out in many boys' meets (compared to girls), so a more even playing field can be rewarding to beginners who are very motivated by placement/awards (or their parents are, more likely...) to continue in the sport.
- combats stress of "Hey, it's not fair my 1st year 8 year old L5 is up against 3rd year 11-year old Joey with most of his bonuses"

and

2) Promote clean basics over sloppy bonuses by creating a division where it's clear to athletes and parents that clean basics are important and win the day
- combats stress of "oh no, I don't have enough bonuses to be competitive"

How this shakes down in practice, I have no idea. Excited to wait and see, though!

 

[Madden3]

Thanks everyone for the interesting replies. It is a lot to digest, and I have more questions…but when I try to put them in one post it is just too long and complicated. So first, I want to address the idea that division 2 is meant to be less practice/less time commitment/less cost than division 1, like Xcel? That idea surprised me- this is not how it is being done at my boys’ gym-every kid in the level is still the exact same practice hours and meet schedule-and exact same cost of course- and all the boys are working the bonuses for their level whether coach expects them to compete Division 2 or 1. Are other gyms offering (or considering offering in the future) a separate Div 2 track that requires less time in the gym?

 

[skschlag]

our gym appears to be doing it the same way your gym is, from what I have heard. I think the boys can do less if they want, but they can also be working toward the bonuses, and not compete them until they are ready. I guess we shall see...

 

[Sasha]

I'm not sure if Div II is intended to be, or will evolve into, an Xcel track for boys. After all, it is assumed that after Div II that next year you will likely compete Div I (or go to the next level, if ready). So it's not like anyone would stay on the "Div II Track", as Div II is just meant as a stop-gap between the previous level and the next level+full bonuses. So boys still have to train all the same compulsory skills - unlike Girls Xcel, which is much more flexible in skill selection than JO; e.g., a girl could be equivalent to JO L5 on floor and L2 on bars and compete in a pretty wide level called "Silver", etc. But who knows? Maybe larger gyms will get creative and spell out different paths/timeline targets with lower hours who would spend more time in Div II....

I do see the newly created "Junior Development" Optional division as more of a boys Xcel for the older boys (high school) who want to compete, but aren't ready for L9/10. That is structured somewhat more like Xcel, and could theoretically stand alone as a goal for a boy who didn't want to commit (or was unrealistically going to achieve) to pursuing L9/10.

(Again, no special insight here, just trying to analyze with everyone else!)

 

[skschlag]

I'm not sure if Div II is intended to be, or will evolve into, an Xcel track for boys. After all, it is assumed that after Div II that next year you will likely compete Div I (or go to the next level, if ready). So it's not like anyone would stay on the "Div II Track", as Div II is just meant as a stop-gap between the previous level and the next level+full bonuses. So boys still have to train all the same compulsory skills - unlike Girls Xcel, which is much more flexible in skill selection than JO; e.g., a girl could be equivalent to JO L5 on floor and L2 on bars and compete in a pretty wide level called "Silver", etc. But who knows? Maybe larger gyms will get creative and spell out different paths/timeline targets with lower hours who would spend more time in Div II....

I do see the newly created "Junior Development" Optional division as more of a boys Xcel for the older boys (high school) who want to compete, but aren't ready for L9/10. That is structured somewhat more like Xcel, and could theoretically stand alone as a goal for a boy who didn't want to commit (or was unrealistically going to achieve) to pursuing L9/10.

(Again, no special insight here, just trying to analyze with everyone else!)

I agree with most of that, but the JD I think has lots of purposes. At D's gym, we have a large JD group. Some are boys that don't want to commit, but the majority are boys that intend to compete JO, but some need a year in between, or some, like D, are coming off injury and just need to get their skills back.

 

[Sasha]

I agree with most of that, but the JD I think has lots of purposes. At D's gym, we have a large JD group. Some are boys that don't want to commit, but the majority are boys that intend to compete JO, but some need a year in between, or some, like D, are coming off injury and just need to get their skills back.

Right, pardon my lack of clarity there. Those are the main purposes in my understanding, too. I was only thinking another potential use for JD might be an Xcel-like track for those who weren't aiming for L9/10, but still wanted to compete as older boys. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Juniper311]

Yeah, the implementation will vary greatly from gym to gym. I think that's mostly on purpose. One of my kids is div2. He's not practicing any less than my div1 kid. I also think that the Xcel comparison comes in more to play in how a gym decides to implement JD. I think in the compulsory levels all kids will practice the same, but will compete div1 or div2 according to their abilities, and that designation could change during the season. My understanding is coming from conversations I've had with our kids' head coach. This is all so new for everyone, though.

 

[momto2js]

The first year in the level kids will be in the base routine group and the repeaters will be in the bonus division to start. It seems at our gym you are not ready to move up until you have won all the things to win at the lower level. I have a third year level 5 that missed the regional by .3 last year. He has most of the level 5 bonuses, but honestly he wasn't ready for level 6 rings or pbars. Maybe by the end of the year he will be. The decision to repeat again was hard for me to accept, but it is what it is. It appears under this new 2 division plan, our kids will do 2 years at each level. I keep going back to "when he is in the gym, he is not in trouble!!"

The other thing I am curious about is how much longer the awards sessions are going to be. It might be better to adopt a swimming model when they go in a box and the coaches hand them out at home. Because what men's gymnastics really needs is a longer awards session!!

 

[gracyomalley]

I think it will take time to see how it will pan out - and frankly it seems that the general environment between areas of the country is so different that the new changes will benefit some much more than others. Here we already had some kids who did all the bonuses and some none, some gyms that let them move fast without bonuses and some that had whole teams doing 2 years a level. Some kids who won every year, some who never did - frankly in a small state/region I don't know that it had any impact on the kids enjoying compulsories and learning safe gymmastics - my 2 boys were definitely in between - some events with bonuses easy and some that took 3 years - but always learned and progressed and had at least one event they could excel in.

So far its looking like only one or 2 meets will offer JD in our region, but that's not set in stone yet. I think it may be a great addition to other larger regions and even ours perhaps in a few years...saves me money I guess...

I always liked the bonus system for boys compulsories, it allowed them to excel in certain areas while slogging in others while not feeling defeated by that one event...and frankly, my boys have placed highly in multiple events over the years WITHOUT bonuses when their skills were clean, so I don't know if I really understand the need for the 2 divisions - unless it will make coaches concentrate on fundamentals more, esp early on, which would lead to safer progressions. I also assume there are areas of the country where a great basic level 6 pbar routine can't place and some kids who need to win. lastly I assume some of this is more aimed at the top boys - as the age changes were specifically to benefit them, not the average jO athelete - so perhaps ten years from now when US has a true men's powerhouse program we'll all understand!

 

[skschlag]

See, I think meets are going to have to offer both divisions. This isn't a separate stream like Xcel. I know that our boys are signed up for all meets, whether JO or JD. I think there will have to be something offered there. And our HC is state director and our GO is regional director, so I am assuming they know something about how the meets are going to be...or at least I hope so! LOL!