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Deduction for a coach assist?

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NEGal

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Hi all. I have a question I hope some of you could help me out with. Dd has her first level 3 meet coming up. I was wondering about the deduction for a coach assist. Is it the value of the element PLUS 0.50? Is this standard for all assists whether it be for the back handspring or mill circle or dismount for beam? Dd can do these on her own but not always consistently. Her coach tends to be conservative (fine by me) and says she will spot the girls if she deems it necessary for safety. She is making her final decision today. These are the 3 possible skills I could see her spotting dd if need be? I am all for safety and I am not questioning the coaches judgement, she is fantastic, just wondering what the deduction would be if she gently helps her up to her mill circle or places a hand on her back on back handspring or guides her in her beam dismount? Thanks so much for any information
 

raenndrops

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Judges can award the portion of the skill they deem the gymnast did on her own... so not necessarily the whole value of the skill.... and the 0.5 for the spot.
 

Gymnast C's mom

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Judges can award the portion of the skill they deem the gymnast did on her own... so not necessarily the whole value of the skill.... and the 0.5 for the spot.
Thank you @raenndrops . I guess it is better to do the skill with a spot than to omit a skill altogether as I am assuming then it would be full value of skill plus 0.5 for the spot?
 

Getoutyall

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I'm not sure about actual deductions but my daughter started off not being able to do the backhandspring or the dismount from beam. After two meets she did them with spots and then the final few meets she had all her skills. She definitely scored better with the spots than omitting the skills.
 

raenndrops

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Thank you @raenndrops . I guess it is better to do the skill with a spot than to omit a skill altogether as I am assuming then it would be full value of skill plus 0.5 for the spot?
Omitting a skill is double the value of the skill... and many of the "big" skills are 0.6 ... so 1.2 if you omit. If a coach spots the ENTIRE THING and it is done perfectly with the spot, it is 1.1. If the gymnast does some of it, it could be as low as 0.55 to as high as 1.05.
 
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NEGal

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I'm not sure about actual deductions but my daughter started off not being able to do the backhandspring or the dismount from beam. After two meets she did them with spots and then the final few meets she had all her skills. She definitely scored better with the spots than omitting the skills.
Thank you @Getoutyall that was very helpful. I assumed that to be the case but wasn't sure!
 

NEGal

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Omitting a skill is double the value of the skill... and many of the "big" skills are 0.6 ... so 1.2 if you omit. If a coach spots the ENTIRE THING and it is done perfectly with the spot, it is 1.1. If the gymnast does some of it, it could be as low as 0.55 to as high as 1.05.
Thanks again @raenndrops. I think I understand much better now!
 
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mommyof1

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If omitting a skill gets a deduction of 2x the value of the skill, then what on earth does "the value of the skill" actually mean? Seems like the true value of the skill would be what you lose for not including it.
 

raenndrops

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If omitting a skill gets a deduction of 2x the value of the skill, then what on earth does "the value of the skill" actually mean? Seems like the true value of the skill would be what you lose for not including it.
The value of the skill is the amount assigned to that skill.
They lose 2x the value of the skill for omitting it because these are COMPULSORY routines. If you choose NOT to do the skill, they charge you a double the value as a penalty for not doing it.

Now, in optionals, if they leave out a special requirement, they only lose 0.5 for that requirement (as long as they still have the right number of A, B, C, skills depending on level).
 
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mommyof1

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The value of the skill is the amount assigned to that skill.
They lose 2x the value of the skill for omitting it because these are COMPULSORY routines. If you choose NOT to do the skill, they charge you a double the value as a penalty for not doing it.

Now, in optionals, if they leave out a special requirement, they only lose 0.5 for that requirement (as long as they still have the right number of A, B, C, skills depending on level).
So what is the function of the value if you lose 2x the value for omitting the skill and can have more than the value of the skill taken away in deductions? In compulsories you don't start from zero and then get the values of all the skills, minus deductions, added to make up your score. You start from 10 and then get deductions for omitting skills and other reasons. So the "value" of a skill should equal the deduction you get for not including it. Right?

Not arguing at all with your description of how things actually work, I just don't get the rationale for calling a particular number the value of a skill when mathematically the value is twice that.
 

GAgymmom

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So what is the function of the value if you lose 2x the value for omitting the skill and can have more than the value of the skill taken away in deductions? In compulsories you don't start from zero and then get the values of all the skills, minus deductions, added to make up your score. You start from 10 and then get deductions for omitting skills and other reasons. So the "value" of a skill should equal the deduction you get for not including it. Right?

Not arguing at all with your description of how things actually work, I just don't get the rationale for calling a particular number the value of a skill when mathematically the value is twice that.
The value of the skill is the value of the skill. Major skills are .6. Minor skills are .2 - .4. If you omit the back walkover on beam--just don't even try it, or leave it completely out--it's -1.2 from 10.00. If a coach "spots" the same skill, that is: puts a finger on her back or puts a hands under her back or another minor touch, its -.5 for the spot, plus any form deductions. If the coach "spots" but uses their own hands to do the skill for the gymnast, as in actually pushes her or pulls her through the skill, or lifts her legs over her head, or any other way of actually doing the skill for the gymnast, then the judge may deduct .5 for the spot, plus not give them credit for the skill since they didn't actually perform the skill themselves. So whatever the skill is valued + the spot, plus any form deductions. I think there is a maximum of -1.2 on each skill.

You can certainly lose more than the value of a skill if it is done poorly. A handstand on beam at Level 4 requires it to be vertical, to join the feet side-by-side, and to hold for 1 second. So if none of these are met its up to -.5, plus if she has an piked body and bent arms and knees then it can be up to -.8 more. So that's 1.3, and since the limit is 1.2, then that's what she can lose. (That would be if the maximum deductions were taken for each thing. This is an extreme example.) Does this answer your question?
 
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Lunde

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So what is the function of the value if you lose 2x the value for omitting the skill and can have more than the value of the skill taken away in deductions? In compulsories you don't start from zero and then get the values of all the skills, minus deductions, added to make up your score. You start from 10 and then get deductions for omitting skills and other reasons. So the "value" of a skill should equal the deduction you get for not including it. Right?

Not arguing at all with your description of how things actually work, I just don't get the rationale for calling a particular number the value of a skill when mathematically the value is twice that.
The value of the skill is also relevant as omitting it is not the only type of error that you might make - you might attempt it and fall for example which may or may not lead to the skill being credited plus the fall deduction
 
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