WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[duyetanh]

Omg....

 

[suds]

Just so we all know what we’re dealing with....

This is when a true leader would speak up.
Sample statement below of what I wish we would hear
(only effective if true, spoken from the heart, and followed up with action):

“Even though our attorneys want us to say that we (USAG / MSU) had no legal duty to inform,
as human beings we had a Moral and Ethical obligation to speak up, take action, and protect athletes and children.

In this regard we failed.

We apologize deeply for our failure and the intensely personal, lasting damage to individuals caused by both our lack of appropriate action and by our failure to maintain a safe, healthy environment for athletes.

We (USAG / MSU) understand that we have violated the trust of parents, athletes, and the public.
We realize that you question our ability to keep athletes / children / young adults safe.

We (USAG / MSU) will demonstrate moral courage and do what is right to protect those who entrust us with their safety.

We (USAG / MSU) want and need your input.
We are listening, learning, and changing.”

Parents, athletes, and the general public really need to hear some version of this, repeatedly, in various ways, with both words and actions.

It is time.

 

[LindyHopper]

Why can they not just acknowledge that they made mistakes that gave Nasser the opportunity to abuse and then outline new policies and procedures that would prevent this from happening again? Just acknowledging that fact and owning that responsibility would go a long way toward healing and rebuilding the community.

Because to admit fault means a whole lot of $$$ to each victim. They would be bankrupt.

Bear in mind, I am not defending them. But it's kind of like when a hospital makes a mistake. Their lawyers tell them to never apologize, because apologizing is admitting fault which invites lawsuits, which costs $$$. The hospital and staff may know they are at fault and genuinely want to apologize, but are instructed not to.

Is it possible that the some of the people at USAG do want to acknowledge that mistakes were made, but the lawyers have tied their hands by instructing them not to? It's not USAG who wrote the legal documents, it's their lawyers, whose job it is to try to keep USAG from having to pay damages.

I know the point I am trying to make, it just isn't being expressed how I want it to. I guess I'm trying to say that individuals who work for an organization may feel differently than the public statements the entity they work for has made.

ETA: @suds I love your comment above, and couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, in our world today, I don't see that ever happening.

 

[Lunde]

OMG - so USAG are arguing that they have no legal duty of care to protect gymnasts or warn clubs about a sexual predator? That is just astonishing and sick

Isn't this "not our problem" argument a contradiction with the stated aims of the Safe sport program?

 

[John]

I just read this page:

https://usagym.org/pages/aboutus/pages/about_usag.html

It opens many questions for me.

A few simple cant get out of my mind questions:

How does the USAG still have authority over anything?
If this is a non-profit company then taking responsibility should not matter.
Has anyone on the 20 member board of directors stepped down or lost their position?

 

[BachFlyer]

Because to admit fault means a whole lot of $$$ to each victim. They would be bankrupt.

Bear in mind, I am not defending them. But it's kind of like when a hospital makes a mistake. Their lawyers tell them to never apologize, because apologizing is admitting fault which invites lawsuits, which costs $$$. The hospital and staff may know they are at fault and genuinely want to apologize, but are instructed not to.

Is it possible that the some of the people at USAG do want to acknowledge that mistakes were made, but the lawyers have tied their hands by instructing them not to? It's not USAG who wrote the legal documents, it's their lawyers, whose job it is to try to keep USAG from having to pay damages.

I know the point I am trying to make, it just isn't being expressed how I want it to. I guess I'm trying to say that individuals who work for an organization may feel differently than the public statements the entity they work for has made.

ETA: @suds I love your comment above, and couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, in our world today, I don't see that ever happening.

I agree that there may be individuals that are sorry and do want to correct the mistakes, and that they are bound to silence due to the pending litigation. Which, incidentally, is why I feel pretty darned confident that "certain people" on this board do NOT speak directly for USAG and are only spouting their (loud and ill-informed) opinions. The unfortunate thing is that we don't really know who is truly on what side of the argument, and many of the people who have been around for some time at USAG are still involved in the administration. I also agree strongly with the general basis of one of the civil cases against USAG/Karoylis, that the individuals at the top of USAG had their reasons to turn a blind eye to any athlete concerns, as they preferred to keep their own questionable behavior out of the limelight. Which together means that I can't find any security in the idea that USAG has addressed any of the root-causes, and that change is important to them.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Well, to be fair to MSU, when USAG figured out they had an abuser on their hands, they didn't notify MSU, either... even though USAG was well aware of the fact that he was working with underage gymnasts at his clinic. The lack of communication between MSU and USAG is just astounding to me, especially since MSU was paying for his volunteer work at USAG.




Wait, are you denying that girls were raped at the training center?

of course not!

 

[Texasmomof3]

As a defense attorney who has written any number of similar motions to dismiss, the legal argument USAG is making is actually correct and fair and has nothing to do with what Nasser did or didn't do. The law is very clear that you can only be liable for negligence if you owe a legal duty to the injured party. (Not a moral duty or an ethical duty, but a legal duty recognized by the common law or by statute.) The argument is no such duty is codified by law. They have to argue that.

 

[profmom]

Yes, exactly, Texasmom. I understand why we want USAG to do what Suds suggests, but if they were to do this, they might as well liquidate the organization and divide up all of its assets among the people who have named it and its officers in a suit.

 

[sewgood]

of course not!

Why not?

 

[MILgymFAM]

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/aly-raisman-gymnast-olympian/

 

[duyetanh]

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/aly-raisman-gymnast-olympian/

Wow.
I find myself wondering why the judge wouldnt let the girls read their statements.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Wow.
I find myself wondering why the judge wouldnt let the girls read their statements.

This was the sentencing for the child porn charges. Perhaps the judge in the sentencing for the molestation charges will allow them to read them there, that is the case where they are the primary victims.

 

[profmom]

She is so brave.

 

[sewgood]

This was the sentencing for the child porn charges. Perhaps the judge in the sentencing for the molestation charges will allow them to read them there, that is the case where they are the primary victims.

The judge in Ingham Co set aside an entire day in January for victim statements and also set a backup date if there are still people that want to speak and didn’t get a chance during the first day.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Very brave ladies in the video here

This also has some good links to more info, I find looking at the map a bit disturbing seeing the number of victims presented in that way

 

[Deleted member D3987]

As a defense attorney who has written any number of similar motions to dismiss, the legal argument USAG is making is actually correct and fair and has nothing to do with what Nasser did or didn't do. The law is very clear that you can only be liable for negligence if you owe a legal duty to the injured party. (Not a moral duty or an ethical duty, but a legal duty recognized by the common law or by statute.) The argument is no such duty is codified by law. They have to argue that.

yes, spot on. and the alleged "negligence" is that someone knew what he was doing and said nothing. this allegation is false...with the exception of MSU dating back to 2000. and any perceived peripheral problem/allegation with our "culture" can not be remedied by common law or statute either. and if they could everyone would be liable for creating this "culture" that dates back at least to WW2.

here is some of the fallout of what has taken place. there are dads who are coaches who have daughters that compete. they have had something said to them on the competition floor or have been reported because they were "hugging" their gymnasts. they were not. they were simply hugging their own children.

we are now in an environment where the baby will be thrown out with the bath water. these are the unintended consequences created by the actions of one POS Doctor. if the public perception and optic is that USAG is at fault then so be it. doesn't mean it's correct. we can't go back now.

 

[strawberries]

Forgive the length

There are so many things in this thread I want to comment on and I hardly know where to start. Everything is just so heartbreaking, and the kids are so young and I can hardly wrap my head around any of it.

My first impulse is to want to come in and fire everybody associated with USAG, and burn down their whole d*** program with the leadership inside.

But, I also know that there is a difference between incompetence and being a child sexual predator. There is a difference between doing a dreadful job at setting up culturally normal protective measures for children, and being a rapist. There is a difference between being ignorant, oblivious, incompetent, stupid, absurdly optimistic, reckless and irresponsible, and actually pulling a lever that is labeled, “this will cause a child to be sexually molested.”

I just want to point out that most coaches are very good people who care deeply about children. Most USAG coaches were genuinely fooled by Larry Nassar. Most of them were not covering for him. They were fooled. There was not some grand conspiracy to protect the USAG institution over protecting the children.

I do not represent USAG in any way and I have no inside knowledge, but I do know some of the coaches and I know a lot of gymnastics coaches in general, and they are, for the most part good, decent people. Could they have done better at setting up an environment to be protective? Of course! (Enormous understatement!!). They all missed really important stuff. The parents who sent their kids to the ranch or who sat in the room with Larry when he did his thing missed it too. They would all do it differently if they had the chance.

I know we all want someone to blame but these guys are not in the same category as Larry. Dunno is not in the same category as Larry. I don’t know Dunno personally, but I know him through years and years of advice, help, wisdom, kindness, generosity on this board. All of this for years was given freely, anonymously and way below his pay grade.

Also, nearly all of his advice was made on the side of the well-being of the children, even when it ruffled coaches’ feathers, even when it insulted parents, he virtually always took the kid’s side. Whether it was telling coaches to back off b/c “it is vestibular!” Or telling parents to back off b/c “you will burn your kid out if you don’t stop watching every second of practice and interrogating your kid about it.” He has never been a guy who took the party line or who said the right thing to make himself look good. I don’t think he is doing that for USAG now, but I do think he is trying to correct the misinformation when he hears it. Would you rather he was silent? I don’t understand quite how the ride turned on him.

I know we want someone to blame, but I don’t feel comfortable standing by and watching things turn against Dunno like this and not speaking. I don’t know what he could be doing differently at this point. Yes, there are huge apologies that should be made by USAG, maybe enormous ones, but there are some things left in the world that they don’t have to apologize for. It seems acceptable for Dunno to point those out. I personally would like to be corrected if I accuse them of something that is simply false.

I’m sorry for this novel. I just think a great deal of Dunno (again I only know him like most of you, anonymously through this board) and I needed to stand up for him.

 

[BachFlyer]

My only comment in regards to your post, Strawberries, is that Dunno often speaks as if he speaks for USAG and that he is affiliated in a greater way that he actually is, and I don't like the misrepresentation. His assertions don't mean that everyone one of his comments are accurate and backed up by fact in this case. It doesn't mean that he is someone who speaks for USAG in any official capacity despite positioning himself that way. It is that characterization (which he won't deny or confirm) in combination with his absolute denials of things that I know through personal connection to be absolutely true, that is extremely irritating.

All other arguments about MSU and USAG and the gym culture, and who was fooled, and to what degree all parties have failed the girls from an ethical standpoint are open for discussion. I agree that only person who did what Nassar did, is Nassar himself. Yes, Dunno and others have "sided" with the kids in many regards on other topics. I personally feel he and others are being highly dismissive of the many ways which USAG and USAG member clubs dropped the ball, as he seems to want to pin it all on MSU. That's all.

 

[bogwoppit]

My only comment in regards to your post, Strawberries, is that Dunno often speaks as if he speaks for USAG and that he is affiliated in a greater way that he actually is, and I don't like the misrepresentation. His assertions don't mean that everyone one of his comments are accurate and backed up by fact in this case. It doesn't mean that he is someone who speaks for USAG in any official capacity despite positioning himself that way. It is that characterization (which he won't deny or confirm) in combination with his absolute denials of things that I know through personal connection to be absolutely true, that is extremely irritating.

I know Dunno irl, he is in a position to speak for USAG.