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Floor Routines

gymgal

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I find it interesting that the same choreographer charges different amounts to different gyms. For example, I believe the above mentioned choreographer charges $400-$450 at our gym.
I believe he mentioned that included travel expenses, which would be different based on location and how many people were splitting the cost
 
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amiandjim

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I believe he mentioned that included travel expenses, which would be different based on location and how many people were splitting the cost
Sure, but $3200 seems excessive for travel and expenses.
 
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gymgal

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Sure, but $3200 seems excessive for travel and expenses.
Well, that also includes the choreography fees and the poster mentioned the choreographer was coming back to rework the routines. Presumably that's included. So 2 sets of travel. I don't know. The most we have ever paid was $350 but we have 2 college teams with choreographers within an hour of us and we weren't looking for elite level choreography
 

Gym Geek

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So yes you should say something, if they paid for a recycled routine thinking it was an original they should be as mad as you.
I agree. Call to clarify if the same coreographer gave them this routine and they were unaware. If not, I would be just as mad as you are and look into the legalities of the issue.
 

beachgirl

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I just paid $775 for my daughter's choreography and to have the music cut. The choreographer lives about 60 miles away. Many people all over the country use her and I assume they pay even more because of the travel expenses factored in. FYI, I wouldn't mind if the gym reused the music and/or choreography as long as I was asked. Even if I left the gym on poor terms, I would feel more like I was helping the new gymnast rather than the gym.
 

ldw4mlo

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Technically you can’t copy a routine you have seen on YouTube or recorded at a competition. The work is copyrighted, it does not need to be patented, the owners could take someone to court for copying their routine.

The way copyright works for created works, like original choreography in the US is similar to Australia. Once the work has been created and recorded it is protected by copyright. Once the routine is done, if a video is taken of it, or the steps are written down it is protected work.
Can’t speak to Australia but the way copyright works here in the US is you have to pay and file get copyright protection.

So the music is typically copyright protected. The routine is not. That would be spelled out by the gym/coreographer. So you as the gymnast/parent may have agreed and signed in a contract that they routine is property of the gym. That is not a copyright.

Whoever purchased the music owns it. So if the gym or the choreographer purchased it they own it. If the gymnast purchased it they own it.

Also, there are different laws that apply to how it is used. Not a lawyer but some general knowledge. When you purchase copyright material for private use. You just purchase the material. If you were to use that material for a business the cost may be more or a royalty fee may apply.

So to use a couple of examples. I can purchase a movie and loan it to 10 of my friends. I’m not making money on it. No copyright violation. If I charge folks to see the video that’s a copyright violation. I digital scrapbook. There are graphic elements that I may get at a low price or even for free, but I’m agreeing to use that element for my personal scrapbook. If I wanted that element for a scrapbook business I would need to purchase it at the business price, which is more. That gives me the right to use the elements in multiple pages that I’m selling.
 

mommyof1

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Can’t speak to Australia but the way copyright works here in the US is you have to pay and file get copyright protection.
Copyright protection attaches at the moment the work is created and fixed in a tangible form (e.g., video). Registration is not required for protection, although it is required if the copyright owner wishes to sue for infringement.

On the basis of a quick search, it looks as though there is an open question as to whether a gymnastics routine is copyrightable as a work of choreography. See, e.g., http://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1281&context=mslj pp. 22-23.
 
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GAgymmom

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All they have to do is change a few things and then it’s no longer the original routine.
 
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ldw4mlo

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Copyright protection attaches at the moment the work is created and fixed in a tangible form (e.g., video). Registration is not required for protection, although it is required if the copyright owner wishes to sue for infringement.

On the basis of a quick search, it looks as though there is an open question as to whether a gymnastics routine is copyrightable as a work of choreography. See, e.g., http://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1281&context=mslj pp. 22-23.
Yes and it would be awfully expensive to sue because a JO gymnast is using it. And as @GAgymmom says you change a few things and you have a new routine. Especially if you purchase the music.

@FlippinLilysMom Yep who is going to take the time to actually get it all the way to court. Perhaps a nasty cease and desist letter. But beyond that meh.

Again, our gym does their own coreography the coaches and gymnast, they work on it together. In fact lots of kids do their own coreography and the coach tweaks it. They do the passes and makes sure all the requirements are met We really just pay for their time with the expectation that the music being used is legally owned. Gymnast goes elsewhere and takes their music and routine so be it. They really aren't going to waste time trying to get them not to use it.

To add. I see many gyms use the same music/routine for all their optional team. Mostly in L6 and IGC/Xcel at the lower levels. Easier to teach and correct etc..... with younger kids involved. In that case really its the gyms routine. Quite honestly if you were changing gyms, why would you want to take a routine that another bunch of gymnasts would be performing possibly at the same meet.

People get what folks are willing to pay. Be $50 or closer to $1000. And there really is no guarantee it won't show up elsewhere slightly morphed.

Seriously I don't think, the Simones, Katelyns, Morgans etc..... are sweating some JO kids using their music and some of their moves.
 

ldw4mlo

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Regarding cost.

You can get what folks are willing to pay. More expensive doesn't always mean better (including scores/medals).

Kind of like the price of leos. Not a chance our coaches/parents would spend what many other gyms do.

So it goes with choreography..................

PS sorry for all the prev, dropped h's typing to fast on to small a screen.
 

moogacat

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FWIW, there's common law copyright protection for any work of "art," regardless of whether it's registered. So there would possibly be common law copyright for the choreography. But, and this is a big screaming neon but, proving it's distinctive when there are so many similar moves shown in floor routines at every meet? I'd say it's not worth the cost it would take to prove it even if you wanted to try. Proving the copyright issue is much easier with the music, especially since it was (likely) purchased with a written license agreement that is easier to enforce. Plus they are violating your license, and you have standing to insist they stop.

TL;DR: if you are truly mad and want to do something, focus on the music. Forget the choreo.
 
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doublestrike

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I believe he mentioned that included travel expenses, which would be different based on location and how many people were splitting the cost
I know that's his price in CA, if you're at a highly competitive gym, it's tough to go against a gym coach if that's who they choose to choreograph routines. He's not my favorite, but you can certainly place well with his routines. Regarding the OP's original question, I believe if the parent paid the choreographer directly (not the gym) the family owns the choreography for the reason mentioned above, once it's recorded (music is a different issue). My daughter would never want to copy someone else's choreography anyways, and I think it's so beyond tacky to do so.
 

Muddlethru

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Dominic Zito comes to gyms in our area (NY) as well and he charges anywhere from $750 to over a thousand. It all depends on how many are getting their choreography done, and they are not elites; and like doublestrike says, it is hard to go against the gym coach.

We were forced to pay $500 for a floor routine from our inexperienced in house beam coach, who was not qualified to coach anything, more so L9 and L10. But HC (who himself just started coaching L10s) and this beam coach were friends. I say “were friends” because they had a falling out almost two years ago and she no longer coaches. I’m just glad my daughter is no longer at that gym. The immaturity of some of the coaches, starting from the HC/gym owner is ridiculous! I tried to switch gyms but my daughter was so attached to the gym.
 

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