WAG Front Giant Help!

[gymfan4ever95]

I have been working on front giants for a few weeks now, and I keep peeling off of the bar. I know it is normal to do this a couple of times when first learning, but I peel the majority of the time. I usually peel off right under the bar, and then I land on my stomach on the mat/pit. Does anyone know how to fix this problem? My coach says that I am maybe shifting my wrists when I shouldn't be, but I don't feel like I am. Thank you!!

 

[iwannacoach]

Ask your coach if it looks like your trying to hang on the the part of the bar you just circled down from, like you're trying to keep from peeling by keeping your hands in one place on the way down, which creates a bent wrist as you begin to swing through the bottom of the swing. It's right at the very bottom of the swing that your weight pulls hardest on the bar. I can't remember, but I think your body feels like it's triple it's original weight the instant you hit the bottom of the swing, that amount of force is going to snap your wrists straight, and make your fingers slide around the bar too fast and too far to hang on.

Don't try experimenting with this without chatting it up with your coach, because it's your coach who needs to help you, not me. Just share the idea, talk it through, and see if your coach thinks this is the problem.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Ask your coach if it looks like your trying to hang on the the part of the bar you just circled down from, like you're trying to keep from peeling by keeping your hands in one place on the way down, which creates a bent wrist as you begin to swing through the bottom of the swing. It's right at the very bottom of the swing that your weight pulls hardest on the bar. I can't remember, but I think your body feels like it's triple it's original weight the instant you hit the bottom of the swing, that amount of force is going to snap your wrists straight, and make your fingers slide around the bar too fast and too far to hang on.

Don't try experimenting with this without chatting it up with your coach, because it's your coach who needs to help you, not me. Just share the idea, talk it through, and see if your coach thinks this is the problem.

==

Yes, and in the mean time here is a great drill you can do that will allow you to experiment with this. Take a cheese mat (old soft one if you have it) stand the cheese mat up directly under the bar (large side down), and have someone barely hold it in place. get up to handstand, (off a block stacked up to the bar height that is off to the side) in other words, blocks stacked far right so you can stand on and kick up to handstand from the side to reverse grip fall and hit the cheese mat. yes the cheese mat will go flying, but it's purpose is to slow you at the bottom so if you do peel it will keep you off of your head. this will enable you to work on keeping your arms locked and pressing away from the bar on the way down without worrying about doing a head dive. You may end up on your belly, so make sure you have a soft 8 inch mat under and behind you. Make sure your shoulder are pressed open and head is neutral. Hope that helps you. If you don't have the ability to stack blocks to get to handstand and can just bird stand jump to handstand then do that, of you can cast but the person holding the cheese mat needs to tilt it away from you and then move it back upright.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

okay guys, front giants for girls are a bit precarious and can be dangerous. soooooooooooo, how about putting up a video so we can make a correct "diagnosis".

 

[Gymsanity]

"I have been working on front giants for a few weeks now"
You are scaring the heck out of me! Safe front giants take months and years of preparation and progression. That's no 'kids' trick. I would faint if I ever had an athlete peel on one. I have been at meets where I have unfortunately witnessed some peels that make me cringe just thinking about them. To even think of helping you we would need to know at least the basics: your level, age, height, weight, hand size, do you wear dowels, do you wrap your thumbs around the bar, how are your back giants, what lead up drill have you been working, can you climb the rope with ease? Etc., etc. Good luck and be careful
Ps. Just saw on the bottom of your post that you are a level 9. All my 9's already have front giants. Are you a new 9?

 

[gymfan4ever95]

"I have been working on front giants for a few weeks now"
You are scaring the heck out of me! Safe front giants take months and years of preparation and progression. That's no 'kids' trick. I would faint if I ever had an athlete peel on one. I have been at meets where I have unfortunately witnessed some peels that make me cringe just thinking about them. To even think of helping you we would need to know at least the basics: your level, age, height, weight, hand size, do you wear dowels, do you wrap your thumbs around the bar, how are your back giants, what lead up drill have you been working, can you climb the rope with ease? Etc., etc. Good luck and be careful
Ps. Just saw on the bottom of your post that you are a level 9. All my 9's already have front giants. Are you a new 9?

No, I competed 9 last season, but I was able to get a bar routine with a 10.0 start value without front giants

 

[Deleted member 14190]

"I have been working on front giants for a few weeks now"
You are scaring the heck out of me! Safe front giants take months and years of preparation and progression. That's no 'kids' trick. I would faint if I ever had an athlete peel on one. I have been at meets where I have unfortunately witnessed some peels that make me cringe just thinking about them. To even think of helping you we would need to know at least the basics: your level, age, height, weight, hand size, do you wear dowels, do you wrap your thumbs around the bar, how are your back giants, what lead up drill have you been working, can you climb the rope with ease? Etc., etc. Good luck and be careful
Ps. Just saw on the bottom of your post that you are a level 9. All my 9's already have front giants. Are you a new 9?

==
Man I wish all my 9's could do front giants. I have a few that they really hurt, so they don't ever work them. (un-flexible shoulders leading to elbow pain). What do you do with these kids? Do you work through it? Do you primarily teach one technique of front giant? I have a couple doing the whip front giant, (accelerated tap/nastia style) and boy do they take a while to learn! Any tips would be welcome!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

okay guys, front giants for girls are a bit precarious and can be dangerous. soooooooooooo, how about putting up a video so we can make a correct "diagnosis".

==
absolutely, and with a cheese mat blocking her at the bottom, so we don't get a video of her peeling!

 

[iwannacoach]

==
Man I wish all my 9's could do front giants. I have a few that they really hurt, so they don't ever work them. (un-flexible shoulders leading to elbow pain). What do you do with these kids? Do you work through it? Do you primarily teach one technique of front giant? I have a couple doing the whip front giant, (accelerated tap/nastia style) and boy do they take a while to learn! Any tips would be welcome!

Which phase of the swing is messing with their elbows?

 

[Gymsanity]

==
Man I wish all my 9's could do front giants. I have a few that they really hurt, so they don't ever work them. (un-flexible shoulders leading to elbow pain). What do you do with these kids? Do you work through it? Do you primarily teach one technique of front giant? I have a couple doing the whip front giant, (accelerated tap/nastia style) and boy do they take a while to learn! Any tips would be welcome!

No real 'secrets', just lots of prep and hard work years ahead. I've never had a level 9 with tight shoulders, or they wouldn't have been 9's. Most gyms have the girls swinging bars at a pretty early age which is good, but we have them do it a bunch in undergrip as well (like every day as a second station). It gets them stretched and used to the regrip and tap. We work on grip strength with the rope and the hand squeezer things. On floor we do lots of undergrip HS, forward roll, pike up HS. On bars, lots of front frogs, front seat circles, front mills, etc. We then move to overgrip front giants on the strap bar until they get the tap (and no I won't get into the debate as to which method is best. As long as they make it, and it looks good, I'm happy! Only they know which feels the best.) Next is the straps in undergrip. Then as coachp said, we put up a resi pit mat under the bar and slowly spot them from HS to the bottom on the wood rail. As they get better we let them fall from the top on their own, but still spot the wrist. After they have that mastered we remove the mat and have them go to about 3/4 and then drop off. We just progress from there. It's a VERY long time, even after they get them, that I will let them go without a safety spot! A long time....

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Which phase of the swing is messing with their elbows?

=
I have three who get pain in the elbows, all the way through the bottom. One of them just has elbow problems and the other two have extremely un-flexible shoulders, which are getting better, but the front giant hurts them so, on to the next set of skills i guess. It's 3 kids out of about 15.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

No real 'secrets', just lots of prep and hard work years ahead. I've never had a level 9 with tight shoulders, or they wouldn't have been 9's. Most gyms have the girls swinging bars at a pretty early age which is good, but we have them do it a bunch in undergrip as well (like every day as a second station). It gets them stretched and used to the regrip and tap. We work on grip strength with the rope and the hand squeezer things. On floor we do lots of undergrip HS, forward roll, pike up HS. On bars, lots of front frogs, front seat circles, front mills, etc. We then move to overgrip front giants on the strap bar until they get the tap (and no I won't get into the debate as to which method is best. As long as they make it, and it looks good, I'm happy! Only they know which feels the best.) Next is the straps in undergrip. Then as coachp said, we put up a resi pit mat under the bar and slowly spot them from HS to the bottom on the wood rail. As they get better we let them fall from the top on their own, but still spot the wrist. After they have that mastered we remove the mat and have them go to about 3/4 and then drop off. We just progress from there. It's a VERY long time, even after they get them, that I will let them go without a safety spot! A long time....

==
Well, I see the words "very long time" so I guess there are no short cuts... darn. We pretty much do all that, except I could add in some extra undergrip swinging for the kids earlier on. No debate on the front giants here, what ever works for the kid.

 

[JBS]

This is a great thread...I am just now starting to figure out this "very long time" thing.

We have some taller kids and we are having conversion issues from the single rail to regular unevens. Single rail...they are doing good work. Unevens...we have tried double wrist spotting them...they pike past the low rail...then they peel and we set them down. Like I said...tall kids...conversion issues...tips on this?

Should we have not used the single rail so much?

Should we just get them up there and slow them down more from the handstand so they don't peel?

Should we just keep drilling and come back to this?

How do we address the low rail?

 

[gymfan4ever95]

==
absolutely, and with a cheese mat blocking her at the bottom, so we don't get a video of her peeling!

Yes, I will take a video this week

 

[Gymsanity]

1. 'we are having conversion issues from the single rail to regular unevens.'
Welcome to giants, front and back!
2. 'Should we have not used the single rail so much?'
I'm not sure you could ever use it too much if you still have girls peeling under any conditions.
3. 'Should we just get them up there and slow them down more from the handstand so they don't peel?'
Absolutely. They should never peel.
4. 'Should we just keep drilling and come back to this?'
If the drills look good, do both. If not, back to lots of drills.
5. 'How do we address the low rail?'
After they look great on the single bar, I introduce the idea of the low bar. I use two coffee cans filled with cement and a PVC pipe upright. I put them behind the high bar with under-wrap across the two, to act like a low bar. I put them so far back the girls couldn't hit it if they were fully laid out. When they get used to that, I move it ever so closer. When it finally gets in their range, they feel pretty good about it, knowing it wouldn't hurt. As they are learning, they will break it many times, but with no pain or fear. In fact, it's kind of fun for them. (please don't use that unbreakable yellow underwrap! I won't digress, but wow that was a thrill ride!!) When that's good, I do the same with the low bar. I move it out of their range and cover it with a mat or Tkachev pad and then slowly work it in. They will probably tag it a few times while learning, but once again, no pain and no fear.
As for front giants I could go on forever (but luckily for you I won't) Just a few tips. They need tremendous grip strength, little girls and little hands can do them, but it's far more dangerous, I believe in having their thumbs around the bar the whole time, spot, spot, and spot. When they finally don't need a spot.......SPOT!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

1. 'we are having conversion issues from the single rail to regular unevens.'
Welcome to giants, front and back!
2. 'Should we have not used the single rail so much?'
I'm not sure you could ever use it too much if you still have girls peeling under any conditions.
3. 'Should we just get them up there and slow them down more from the handstand so they don't peel?'
Absolutely. They should never peel.
4. 'Should we just keep drilling and come back to this?'
If the drills look good, do both. If not, back to lots of drills.
5. 'How do we address the low rail?'
After they look great on the single bar, I introduce the idea of the low bar. I use two coffee cans filled with cement and a PVC pipe upright. I put them behind the high bar with under-wrap across the two, to act like a low bar. I put them so far back the girls couldn't hit it if they were fully laid out. When they get used to that, I move it ever so closer. When it finally gets in their range, they feel pretty good about it, knowing it wouldn't hurt. As they are learning, they will break it many times, but with no pain or fear. In fact, it's kind of fun for them. (please don't use that unbreakable yellow underwrap! I won't digress, but wow that was a thrill ride!!) When that's good, I do the same with the low bar. I move it out of their range and cover it with a mat or Tkachev pad and then slowly work it in. They will probably tag it a few times while learning, but once again, no pain and no fear.
As for front giants I could go on forever (but luckily for you I won't) Just a few tips. They need tremendous grip strength, little girls and little hands can do them, but it's far more dangerous, I believe in having their thumbs around the bar the whole time, spot, spot, and spot. When they finally don't need a spot.......SPOT!

=


I will say that several years ago I did stop grabbing the wrists,,, instead using the cheese mat drill and then teaching the front giants over the pit bar, spotting the upper chest instead. Maybe it's just me, but I felt that the kids were peeling more when I was holding the wrist and when I stopped, they stopped peeling. Not sure if squeezing the wrist was effecting the grip or not, but the peels stopped. Anyone else have this notion? Obviously if I did not have a pit I would still be holding the wrist, so I am NOT promoting this, as I do not want anyone to get hurt over my notion, It also could be that I am just doing a better job at preparing them during the stretch phase. (lots of cheese mat drills). anyone?

 

[Azgymmiemom]

My dd is learning these. She can cast to hs, go over and go around, but she can't make it over the top. Most of the time she can return to front support, but sometimes, she just has to let go and fall into the pit. I figure she will get them eventually, and I can't even tell you how her coach is helping her, bc I don't watch. She just updates me after practice. She's fairly small about 60lbs and strong. She does have tighter shoulders, but she's never complained that front giants make her arms or shoulders hurt.
She's determined to get around by the end of summer. Hmm, maybe I should suggest to her to be patient...
Sent from my SCH-I545 using ChalkBucket mobile app

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yes, I will take a video this week

very good. then we can have a discussion about front giants and i'll throw in my 2 cents. i have extensive experience with this skill, it is in the elite compulsory and i have a couple of published papers over the years on this subject.

 

[gymgal]

okay guys, front giants for girls are a bit precarious and can be dangerous.

dunno, is it easier for boys to learn? Why? dd is working them on on strap bar and says they are very hard to get the timing right. I have no clue what she means (and to be honest, nor do I want to know.. probably over my head in terms of explanation) but was curious about the boy/girl comparison.

 

[Gymsanity]

=


I will say that several years ago I did stop grabbing the wrists,,, instead using the cheese mat drill and then teaching the front giants over the pit bar, spotting the upper chest instead. Maybe it's just me, but I felt that the kids were peeling more when I was holding the wrist and when I stopped, they stopped peeling. Not sure if squeezing the wrist was effecting the grip or not, but the peels stopped. Anyone else have this notion? Obviously if I did not have a pit I would still be holding the wrist, so I am NOT promoting this, as I do not want anyone to get hurt over my notion, It also could be that I am just doing a better job at preparing them during the stretch phase. (lots of cheese mat drills). anyone?

Great observation. When I first learned to spot back giants I thought I was the worlds greatest spotter because of all the kids I saved. After seeing them doing better with other coaches, I realized that it was me causing them to peel. Helping was hurting as I was causing their hands to come loose during the shift. Once I realized that, I've never had the problem since and I'm extra careful, especially with fronts. I spot back giants by wrist and seat, fronts by wrist and stomach.