Full spin on beam deductions and all about GB WAG programmes

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Faith

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TNAG Have quite a good explanation of the Uk system, read the "elite -the cold hard truth" document...

On top of the elite/club grades system, regions have their own "in-house" competitions with their own rules and regulations. Having read it bit more it seems that Level 5 =novice, level 4= intermediate etc. However with elite I believe you're only allowed to be a year "out of age", with regional you can be any age any level.

In this region you can't compete WAG until the year you turn 8. Competitions seem to be split by age and level, so you'll have level 5, in age (in year of competition, so this year 2005 born), and then the out of age sections,, age 9, 10, 11 etc... Then the whole lot again but level 4, level 3...

Learning parent- i know in this region at least you're not allowed to do both WAG and F+V. You have to get written permission from the technical comittee if you've competed WAG, and want to switch to F+V, and same if you've competed elite compulsory and want to move down to the regional programme. But like I said upthread it does seem like kids doing minimal hours or with slightly less ability do F+V, whereas to do WAG at all you need to do the hours and be quite talented to even start off in Level 5.

The R+C thing I think is tough because it needs a certain type of control and flexibility. 99% of WAG kids in DD's gym can press to handstand multiple times- DD has a press handstand mount on beam. DD can do the R+C routines, but not with the slow precision, 180 or oversplits that is required for elite track. She's a speed and power demon :D. I have actually seen kids competing worse R+C routines in compulsories, but DD's club won't enter them unless they can do it well with good form. They apply that rule to any skill as well.

I do get the feeling that more clubs seems to be competing kids regionally, bypassing compulsories and going straight to espoir or junior challenge. I'm not entirely sure there's much of a cap on difficulty in our regional comps- apart from no flipping vaults and no double salto's you could have 9 year olds doing full twists on floor and BHS BLO on beam-you are just very likely to score out with that sort of difficulty and have to move to the level up the next year..

I have an end of year DD too, so she's competing against 9 year olds having just turned 8 :). I remember back in my day there was much discussion about introducing an "age by the date of competition" rule. I don't think it matters for the really talented, but for us middle ground kids it does make a difference.
 
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Faith

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And good luck Pink and fluffy for this weekend! Can we follow online?:)
 
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Jenny

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It does seem to me that BG / local County organisations are a wee bit secretive about gym. When you start off the information available is only What your gym chooses to tell you.

Try and find out about the skills required for grades- or how the grading / levels system works. It takes some determined digging and some background knowledge.

When we first started we ddn't have a scooby !


That's why this site is so great - I have learned more here in a few months than in 7 years as a gym mums.

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I think that is true the world over Margo. But I have found just when you feel you understand they change the system anyway and you are back to square one!
 
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Flossyduck

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^^^^ Just as I thought I had a handle on it (the whole novice thing aside, which I don't think is big in this region) they are changing it. Now there will be a level 1. So girls who have just passed level 2 now have the goalposts moved and have to compete another level. And the skills for each grade/level are all changing, again. My daughter is a late Autumn baby too, but actually all of the girls in her level/age group were born between September and December. No early babies... I would describe two of them as power gymnasts, two as very balletic. Interesting to see how things pan out.
 

Jenny

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However with elite I believe you're only allowed to be a year "out of age",


I do get the feeling that more clubs seems to be competing kids regionally, bypassing compulsories and going straight to espoir or junior challenge. I'm not entirely sure there's much of a cap on difficulty in our regional comps- apart from no flipping vaults and no double salto's you could have 9 year olds doing full twists on floor and BHS BLO on beam-you are just very likely to score out with that sort of difficulty and have to move to the level up the next year..
Faith a friend tells me the rumour is from next year you can take compulsories at any age and this will reverse the trend away from them. Kids will be able to take their compulsories even 3 or 4 years out of age and just reach the British Championships a little older. Sounds like good news! Maybe your dd will benefit from that. She is certainly doing the hours already.

BTW I wonder if your region is unusual in having a move up score. The friend I asked said her region didn't. You could just keep repeating the same level even if you got a really high score. More like JO levels.
 

Faith

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She is certainly doing the hours already.
Kids on the elite track tend to be doing 16-18 hours from age 6/7. Certainly by the time they are old enough for Level 5. I know Liverpool do those hours, and our club elite track kids do an extra day from Level 4- so 18/19 hours from 9 years.

Im just holding on for the ride! She'll get where she gets :)
 
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bogwoppit

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My daughter is a late Autumn baby too, but actually all of the girls in her level/age group were born between September and December. No early babies... I would describe two of them as power gymnasts, two as very balletic. Interesting to see how things pan out.
A late autumn baby would be born in December. October to November babies would be autumn babies. September babies, up to the 23/24, are actually late summer babies. I know 'cos I am one!!! :D Babies born Sept 25-30 are extremely early autumn babies.
 

bogwoppit

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BTW I wonder if your region is unusual in having a move up score. The friend I asked said her region didn't. You could just keep repeating the same level even if you got a really high score. More like JO levels.
I have never heard of a move up score either. That is a bit harsh if you do not have the skills, no?
 

Learning Parent GB

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Faith, we are similar in terms of comps being split by level and then age. So DD is out of age, but only by one year. The whole time of year that they were born is just interesting because it is different to school, but there would always have to be a cut off somewhere so I can't really complain about it. I always wondered what happened to girls that are out of age and get really good and make it to espoir - do they get the chance to join them and just do one year? If there is a chance for people to reach the British championships at a slilghtly older age then that seems fair for later developers. Realistically I think it will only mean 1 or 2 years variation, but it seems fair to me. Our girls definitely compete F+V early in the season though - so I wonder if it is alright in that order? We have a move up score from our level competitions. I doubt that DD will be anywhere near it in her June comp, but if she achieves it in the November team competition then that can also count and she can move up. I don't know what the move up score is though - and as I don't know the scoring system for level 5 then it wouldn't help me much anyway. I've been reading on here for a while, and I definitely feel I know more about the USAG scoring system than ours! As a nosey parent I would love to know what elements are worth what in her routines. She's never going to be a star, but I just want to understand how she is doing for her level.
 

Jenny

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Kids on the elite track tend to be doing 16-18 hours from age 6/7. Certainly by the time they are old enough for Level 5. I know Liverpool do those hours, and our club elite track kids do an extra day from Level 4- so 18/19 hours from 9 years.

Im just holding on for the ride! She'll get where she gets :)
That is a lot of hours. I had got the impression that kids didn't do as many hours in England as in JO but that sound as many if not more.
 

Iwannabemargo

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That is certainly not the norm here . I know my dd is doing more hours in her club than anyone else and she does 6 1/2 ! She was doing 12 at her old club, but she is actually doing better on less hours. I would like another day so maybe 10 per week would suit her fine.

To put it in perspective there are how many elite clubs in the uk - maybe half a dozen ? All the hundreds of others are plugging away on handstands and cartwheels a few hours a week in the local rec centre.

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Faith

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I have never heard of a move up score either. That is a bit harsh if you do not have the skills, no?
Not really. For a start the move up score is very high- it's usually set after the comps so only the top one or two with the high difficulty move up. I suppose it stops clubs sandbagging the lower levels. Plus it's modified fig, so if you don't have a skill, you just don't compete it. I think the only " compulsory" move is that flaming spilt leap, otherwise it's "backward move" so anything from a backward roll to a standing tuck....

Learning parent- lincs website should have all the regional rules. It's whether you can make head or tail! And if you don't compete compulsory levels , there's a challenge cup held every year for espoirs, juniors and seniors, so if you get the required score you can qualify for the following years british champs that way.
 

Iwannabemargo

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Jenny, I would Love it it Pink and fluffy would be able to move on to levels out of age, but again its pursuading the club to go down that route - and realistically its only her and her friend that are anything near the level required.

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Faith

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That is a lot of hours. I had got the impression that kids didn't do as many hours in England as in JO but that sound as many if not more.
That is certainly not the norm here . I know my dd is doing more hours in her club than anyone else and she does 6 1/2 ! She was doing 12 at her old club, but she is actually doing better on less hours. I would like another day so maybe 10 per week would suit her fine.

Those hours are elite track. So not the norm. There are So not the norm. few clubs do elite compulsories, and extremely few that produce more than one or two a year. Most club wag gymnasts train 15 hours or less, whatever their level. Dd would normally be on 12, but as she's a late starter and not the most natural she's doing the extra to catch up. I think if a kid is talented but doesn't want to go elite track they'd probably manage club level on around 9.
 

Jenny

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Kids on the elite track tend to be doing 16-18 hours from age 6/7. Certainly by the time they are old enough for Level 5. I know Liverpool do those hours, and our club elite track kids do an extra day from Level 4- so 18/19 hours from 9 years.

Im just holding on for the ride! She'll get where she gets :)
Now that is interesting. I just looked on BG website and their Health and Safety policy says "British Gymnastics recommends that sessions for children under the age of eight years do not exceed two hours" so pretty impossible to get to 18 hours for a kid aged 6 or 7! I have also been told in the past that BG stated that children under 9 should not exceed hours that double their age so at 6 no more than 12 hours. I always thought it was quite a neat rule but I can't find it on the site. Maybe it was dropped.
 

Flossyduck

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"A late autumn baby would be born in December. October to November babies would be autumn babies. September babies, up to the 23/24, are actually late summer babies. I know 'cos I am one!!! :D Babies born Sept 25-30 are extremely early autumn babies." I meant that none of the compulsory 4 girls were born in the early part of the year... but on a more important note... I have learnt some new and crazy things on this thread - novices expected to flic, move up scores and so on... but Bog the craziest thing of all has to be your assertion that December is in Autumn. What? nooooo. If Christmas is in Autumn my whole world view just shifted and that's two shades of crazy too far for me. I need to lie down!
 

Learning Parent GB

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Now that is interesting. I just looked on BG website and their Health and Safety policy says "British Gymnastics recommends that sessions for children under the age of eight years do not exceed two hours" so pretty impossible to get to 18 hours for a kid aged 6 or 7! I have also been told in the past that BG stated that children under 9 should not exceed hours that double their age so at 6 no more than 12 hours. I always thought it was quite a neat rule but I can't find it on the site. Maybe it was dropped.
Our -8 and under girls finish earlier in the evening, even if they are at the same level.
And I'd just like to clarify, my interest in the espoir and higher levels is purely academic!
 
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bogwoppit

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but Bog the craziest thing of all has to be your assertion that December is in Autumn. What? nooooo. If Christmas is in Autumn my whole world view just shifted and that's two shades of crazy too far for me. I need to lie down!
You do know that winter starts on Dec 22nd??? Christmas only just makes it in!!!! I have learned some crazy stuff too.
 
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Faith

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Now that is interesting. I just looked on BG website and their Health and Safety policy says "British Gymnastics recommends that sessions for children under the age of eight years do not exceed two hours" so pretty impossible to get to 18 hours for a kid aged 6 or 7! I have also been told in the past that BG stated that children under 9 should not exceed hours that double their age so at 6 no more than 12 hours. I always thought it was quite a neat rule but I can't find it on the site. Maybe it was dropped.
I think that generally will apply to non-elite training. DD never has exceeded that twice the age thing. The two hour thing is difficult as many small clubs don't have the space so do a long session on the night or weekend when the rec kids aren't in, rather than 2 shorter sessions sharing the gym with large numbers of children.

Clubs with elite aspirations are very different! If you have a nosy around the websites of clubs like Liverpool, heathrow, notts, Dynamo, the Academy etc it can be very interesting, especially if they publish their structure and timetables :) The club that Flossy's daughter is at, for example, would class my DD as a recreational gymnast (for them, rec = non elite track).

Another interesting thing at this comp- one kid I thought I recognised. So come home, have a quick google and she's one of those Mom is a coach kids with loads of youtube vids of "Incredible gymnast susie, age 3, doing triple tuck backs in the garden" :D She didn't make the podium....
 
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Flossyduck

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Ha, ha, ha. Yes of course I know the old idea that the year divides into four equal seasons... But we all know that the actual truth here is that winter lasts from about early October until about May. If we are lucky. The other three seasons rush through the other four months. I might be inclined to revise the optimistic view that spring starts in May, having just been out shopping and been caught in snow, hail and sleet, with my breath condensing in clouds. Pah!!
 
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