Herd Immunity

profmom

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Again, a lot will depend upon how vaccine policy is designed. Fewer people get flu shots than MMR because many public and private educational institutions refuse to allow enrollment without proof of MMR or a verified medical excuse. I just hope that by the time we are in stage two trials for vaccines, if we do get to that point soon, whoever's leading FDA is primarily interested in public health and safety. (Hahn's fine so I hope he lasts. Very, very tired of the infighting between Alex Azar and Seema Verma.)
 
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bogwoppit

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Yeah… idiots. There will always be anti-vaxers. :mad:

Admin note -

I have had a few reports of this post. It has been claimed to be political and name calling. I honestly cannot find anything political about it. No party was mentioned, no president or state leader etc.

I do not see that he is calling any member a name, I definitely think he is calling anti-vaxers idiots, but that again is not about members, and he is entitled to share his opinion.
 

lostinfog

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Aero’s post is harsh, stereotypical but as you said everyone is free to have their opinion. I’ve seen this virus has brought out a lot of frustration and divide over how we make important decisions for our family whether it be vaccines, schooling, if you brought a child to the grocery store or familial decisions on what activities are “safe” or “acceptable” to participate in.

Personally, my kids have been vaccinated for all their major boosters as have my husband and I. My mom is an only child My grandfather suffered greatly from mumps. I have family that are still alive today who almost died from diptheria. I do not necessarily always get the flu shot. I’ve had flu twice in my 40 years, once in adult hood. We will not be getting the Covid vaccine without more information, longer trials and understanding of long term effects or outcomes. It’s too big a risk for us.
 

profmom

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It's Hobson's choice. We also have no idea about the long-term effects of COVID infection. Recent research shows that measles infections can have a life-long impact on the immune system. And, speaking for myself, thank goodness there is a good vaccine available now to prevent shingles, a risk for all of us who had chicken pox as children.

With flu, we have made the decision for the most part to let individuals choose to assume the risk by opting out of vaccination. However, I think policy could change when we have a particularly virulent strain emerge. It's likely to happen at some point, and most of the pre-COVID pandemic planning and scenarios focused on this likelihood.

I just hope that, moving forward, more people in the US can think about their social and moral obligations to keep others safe. There's room within that principle for a variety of individual choices.
 

Aero

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I would like to humbly apologize to those who were angered by my post, because it truthfully was quite broad, and I didn't effectively clarify what I meant.

When I said "anti-vaxers," I was referring to the specific subset of people who actively avoid all vaccinations, including the major ones that have literally saved our species from mass death, based on completely unfounded claims that fly in the face of scientific research. I totally understand the very valid reasons for being reticent to jump on a brand new COVID-19 vaccine, because it could very well have negative effects that are unforeseen. I also understand that it is unsafe and dangerous for certain individuals to get vaccines due to various medical reasons and complications. My post did not clarify these two points, and I'm sorry for that!

I would also like to clarify my original point, too. I cannot stand the idea of people choosing not to vaccinate themselves or their children based on reasons that have zero scientific basis whatsoever, and I stand by my claim that they are idiots. This is because vaccines have been undeniably vital to humanity, having completely stopped numerous deadly diseases in their tracks, and there are countless scientific studies showing the facts; vaccines are an incredible boon to human civilization, and the facts are there. I lump anti-vaxers in with flat earthers — they are simply wrong. You cannot argue with facts, because they are true whether or not you believe them.
 

gymgal

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I would also like to clarify my original point, too. I cannot stand the idea of people choosing not to vaccinate themselves or their children based on reasons that have zero scientific basis whatsoever, and I stand by my claim that they are idiots. This is because vaccines have been undeniably vital to humanity, having completely stopped numerous deadly diseases in their tracks, and there are countless scientific studies showing the facts; vaccines are an incredible boon to human civilization, and the facts are there. I lump anti-vaxers in with flat earthers — they are simply wrong. You cannot argue with facts, because they are true whether or not you believe them.
Thanks for clarifying your original stance.

As for the above, I generally agree with what you are saying especially with the population as whole, but there are always outliers. Those who work with children with special needs, especially littles (under 5) tend to see these outliers where as the general population does not. I am in no way saying that vaccines cause autism. However, I do believe (and there is some research backing this up) that there are sub-groups of children whose immune systems are hyper-stimulated by a variety of things and that we often seen both short and long term regressions in behavior and development after these events. It can be a simple illness, high fever, seizures, weird allergic reaction, and yes, vaccination visits. I have heard too many reports from parents and have seen it with my own eyes. Does the MMR or any other vaccine cause large scale developmental impairments in the population? NO. Is it possible for a small number of individuals to have long term adverse effects from these vaccines? Of course! Research on vaccines prove this. It is a risk/benefit question and certainly the benefit outweighs any risk for the society as a whole... BUT what about the individual child/family? Is it OK to force a parent to vaccinate their child when they have already seen regression from hyper-stimulation, all for the good of society? That's a tough pill to swallow, especially in "the land of the free, home of the brave". I think there can be compromise here. It doesn't have to be an all/nothing approach. One reason this has blown up is that pediatrician offices have refused to work with families on alternative (longer) schedule to reduce the load on their children. Is this an issue for most children? NO. Can it be an issue for some? yes. So work through it with these families. Don't make it an "either you follow our schedule (including vaccines not required by the state) OR we will discharge you from our care".

Before the mods contemplate deleting posts again, yes, this is relevant to the to current topic as it will be a societal discussion when the vaccine becomes available. There will be places of business and possibly the government, in the forms of school, funds, etc that will force this on people.
 

ldw4mlo

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. So work through it with these families. Don't make it an "either you follow our schedule (including vaccines not required by the state) OR we will discharge you from our care".
I have to say if I had a doc that didn’t work with me they wouldn’t need to discharge me or mine from their care. I would be doing the discharging, to a doc who would work with me.
 

gymgal

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I have to say if I had a doc that didn’t work with me they wouldn’t need to discharge me or mine from their care. I would be doing the discharging, to a doc who would work with me.
unfortunately, in our area, more and more doctors are choosing this policy and they are being pressured from the AAP, t least tht is their current reasoning when asked. It is ok for families who have a wide network of drs but for those with limited networks (the ACA plans) and particularly those on medicaid, it can be a real struggle to find a pediatrician willing to work with you. Family physicians have been more accommodating but they are starting to get pressure from the top as well.
 
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Freddy's Fred

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Nope... Wrong... Not anti-vaxers... There will be a lot of vaccinators who will not get it or give it to the children without seeing how large amounts of people respond to it. And no, 6-12 Months if trials will not be enough for a lot of folks.
But that still makes them anti-vaxxers. We should feel obligated to get vaccinated. I get that the potential for side effects is scary, but the long term health consequences of Covid is way scarier. Current vaccines are by and large very very very safe.
 

mommyof1

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But that still makes them anti-vaxxers. We should feel obligated to get vaccinated. I get that the potential for side effects is scary, but the long term health consequences of Covid is way scarier. Current vaccines are by and large very very very safe.
I am about as pro-vaccination as one could possibly be, but in this case I am skeptical. There are entirely new types of vaccines being considered here, there is a rush to get them tested and approved, and they will be administered to the entire population before we've had a chance to observe the long-term effects on a decent-sized group of people. I am particularly worried that the vaccine may actually make the illness worse in some cases, as with the failed dengue vaccine. That doesn't make me an anti-vaxxer, it makes me an evidence-based decision-maker. I will be looking closely at the science before I decide to have my family vaccinated. My obligation, to my family and to society, is to make sure my family gets a safe and effective vaccine as soon as possible. Big pharma and the federal government have not demonstrated that I can blindly trust them to provide a safe and effective vaccine.

Mistrust of the vaccine will be even greater in this case because of the mistrust governments and public health authorities have earned through their response to the pandemic and communication of inaccurate information (e.g., "masks don't work," "there is no airborne spread"). If this vaccine turns out to be ineffective or harmful, I fear that it will further undermine confidence in vaccines in general, leaving society vulnerable to diseases such as measles that were previously under control.
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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I'm pro-listening-to-people-who-have-more-expertise-than-I-do. I won't second-guess a pilot on how to fly a plane, I won't second-guess a meteorologist on how to prepare for tomorrow's weather, and I won't second-guess a doctor on whether to take a vaccine.

There is a very short list of topics where I consider myself to have enough expertise to challenge or disagree with other experts. Immunology, epidemiology, virology, and medicine in general are not on that list. For this reason I will take exactly the meds and vaccines on the exact schedule in the exact dosages recommended by my doctor (with the exception that I will generally consume more alcohol than he recommends), because knowing more than me about how to keep people healthy is literally my doctor's job, and he's gone through many years of school to become an expert in it.
 
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gymgal

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I'm pro-listening-to-people-who-have-more-expertise-than-I-do. I won't second-guess a pilot on how to fly a plane, I won't second-guess a meteorologist on how to prepare for tomorrow's weather, and I won't second-guess a doctor on whether to take a vaccine.

There is a very short list of topics where I consider myself to have enough expertise to question or challenge or disagree with other experts. Immunology, epidemiology, virology, and medicine in general are not on that list; I will take exactly the meds and vaccines on the exact schedule in the exact dosages recommended by my doctor (with the exception that I will generally consume more alcohol than he recommends), because knowing more than me about how to keep people healthy is literally my doctor's job, and he's gone through many years of school to become an expert in this area.
I don't know... perhaps it is different for people in the medical/allied health fields because we know just how much science is NOT an exact science. How many times has science been wrong on nutrition, medications, exercise, premature babies, genetic conditions - the list goes on. Everyone believes the information is correct - until it is not anymore, until more research comes along. I have a chronic, debilitating condition. I trust my specialist's input but I do not rely on him for all of my information. I do the research before and after each appt and then collaborate with him to make decisions based on my individual needs. We all need to take more interest in our own health and not rely solely on the experts.

PS - my laptop's "A" key is sticking so I apologize in advance if there are any missing 'a's in the replies. I tried to correct them all.
 

amiandjim

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I don't know... perhaps it is different for people in the medical/allied health fields because we know just how much science is NOT an exact science. How many times has science been wrong on nutrition, medications, exercise, premature babies, genetic conditions - the list goes on. Everyone believes the information is correct - until it is not anymore, until more research comes along. I have a chronic, debilitating condition. I trust my specialist's input but I do not rely on him for all of my information. I do the research before and after each appt and then collaborate with him to make decisions based on my individual needs. We all need to take more interest in our own health and not rely solely on the experts.

PS - my laptop's "A" key is sticking so I apologize in advance if there are any missing 'a's in the replies. I tried to correct them all.
Agreed. And it’s also hard, because those of us in medicine also know a multitude of physicians who are considered “experts” in their field, and perception is far from reality. Example: a “famous” surgeon that people come from all over the US to see that never actually scrubs in or participates in the surgeries. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but it does breed skepticism.
 

mommyof1

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I'm pro-listening-to-people-who-have-more-expertise-than-I-do. I won't second-guess a pilot on how to fly a plane, I won't second-guess a meteorologist on how to prepare for tomorrow's weather, and I won't second-guess a doctor on whether to take a vaccine.

There is a very short list of topics where I consider myself to have enough expertise to challenge or disagree with other experts. Immunology, epidemiology, virology, and medicine in general are not on that list. For this reason I will take exactly the meds and vaccines on the exact schedule in the exact dosages recommended by my doctor (with the exception that I will generally consume more alcohol than he recommends), because knowing more than me about how to keep people healthy is literally my doctor's job, and he's gone through many years of school to become an expert in it.
I spent too much time studying medical malpractice ever to trust any doctor without a robust informed consent discussion. And there is a reason why a second opinion is very often a good idea.
 
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Geoffrey Taucer

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I don't know... perhaps it is different for people in the medical/allied health fields because we know just how much science is NOT an exact science. How many times has science been wrong on nutrition, medications, exercise, premature babies, genetic conditions - the list goes on. Everyone believes the information is correct - until it is not anymore, until more research comes along. I have a chronic, debilitating condition. I trust my specialist's input but I do not rely on him for all of my information. I do the research before and after each appt and then collaborate with him to make decisions based on my individual needs. We all need to take more interest in our own health and not rely solely on the experts.

PS - my laptop's "A" key is sticking so I apologize in advance if there are any missing 'a's in the replies. I tried to correct them all.
Well, yes, you have expertise in the field. That's exactly my point; if I had medical expertise, I might push back against something a doc says that I disagree with. But I don't, so I don't
 

Freddy's Fred

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I am about as pro-vaccination as one could possibly be, but in this case I am skeptical. There are entirely new types of vaccines being considered here, there is a rush to get them tested and approved, and they will be administered to the entire population before we've had a chance to observe the long-term effects on a decent-sized group of people. I am particularly worried that the vaccine may actually make the illness worse in some cases, as with the failed dengue vaccine. That doesn't make me an anti-vaxxer, it makes me an evidence-based decision-maker. I will be looking closely at the science before I decide to have my family vaccinated. My obligation, to my family and to society, is to make sure my family gets a safe and effective vaccine as soon as possible. Big pharma and the federal government have not demonstrated that I can blindly trust them to provide a safe and effective vaccine.

Mistrust of the vaccine will be even greater in this case because of the mistrust governments and public health authorities have earned through their response to the pandemic and communication of inaccurate information (e.g., "masks don't work," "there is no airborne spread"). If this vaccine turns out to be ineffective or harmful, I fear that it will further undermine confidence in vaccines in general, leaving society vulnerable to diseases such as measles that were previously under control.
I hear what you are saying and remember being scared when HPV vaccines were new, but now is the time to think of the good of the group. If no one gets the vaccine, we will never ever ever ever ever get out of this. If you are waiting around for more data, you are saying that other people's lives are expendible and yours is not. It is extraordinarily rare for a vaccine injury to occur. If people don't get vaccinated, they can just stay home for the rest of their lives. It's infuriating to me that people feel like it's someone else's responsibility to do this real world testing. We do not have a choice. (I know I am preaching to the choir, because you are a vaccine supporter. ) I'm in mommy rage mode because people are so freaking irresponsible and lazy about keeping this s*** under control. Not directed at you.
 

mommyof1

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I hear what you are saying and remember being scared when HPV vaccines were new, but now is the time to think of the good of the group. If no one gets the vaccine, we will never ever ever ever ever get out of this. If you are waiting around for more data, you are saying that other people's lives are expendible and yours is not. It is extraordinarily rare for a vaccine injury to occur. If people don't get vaccinated, they can just stay home for the rest of their lives. It's infuriating to me that people feel like it's someone else's responsibility to do this real world testing. We do not have a choice. (I know I am preaching to the choir, because you are a vaccine supporter. ) I'm in mommy rage mode because people are so freaking irresponsible and lazy about keeping this s*** under control. Not directed at you.

It is the drug company’s responsibility to do proper testing under ethical conditions. If that does not happen, the citizen’s normal duty to be vaccinated does not attach. No one should be expected to serve as a guinea pig for a vaccine that has been rushed to market. Here is an example of what can go wrong:


Our government and other public health authorities have promoted unsafe and unproven treatments and have actively discouraged us from taking effective precautions against the virus, so I am not going to have my family vaccinated just because the government says I should. I will be reading whatever studies I can get my hands on, because I have the professional training and experience to do a pretty decent job of interpreting them. Then I will weigh the risks and benefits, factoring in uncertainty. Under ordinary conditions, I would expect that calculus to weigh heavily in favor of an FDA-approved vaccine. But these are not ordinary times.

And I am doing my part to stop the virus, thank you very much. My family has been living under virtual house arrest for 20 weeks now. I have pulled my daughter from gym and school, and she is not going back any time soon. I am ready to quit my job the minute my employer demands that I return to the office or resume business travel. We are doing everything that can possibly be done to avoid catching or spreading the virus, and we will continue to do so until we receive a safe and effective vaccine. I have a whole lot of mom rage of my own, for the exact same reason as you.
 
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ldw4mlo

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Well, yes, you have expertise in the field. That's exactly my point; if I had medical expertise, I might push back against something a doc says that I disagree with. But I don't, so I don't
Everyone should do their own research, or get second opinions, etc..... all those professionals are mere mortals.

Ultimately, it’s our bodies, our decisions.
 

JessSyd

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But that still makes them anti-vaxxers. We should feel obligated to get vaccinated. I get that the potential for side effects is scary, but the long term health consequences of Covid is way scarier. Current vaccines are by and large very very very safe.
Current vaccines are, by and large, based on tried and true science.

If the current frontrunner, Moderna’s mRNA vaccine, goes to market, it will be the first mRNA vaccine to do so, ever.

It is radically new vaccine technology - it basically inserts code into your cells that gets them to manufacture the vaccine inside your body. So with this type of vaccination, first your body produces the actual antigens, then it makes the antibodies. This is a brand new approach.

If it works it will be an amazing leap forward as it will be much faster to produce than more traditional vaccines. But I do not think it puts people into ‘anti-vaxxer’ territory if they are wary about a technology that has been rushed to market substantially faster than any other vaccine has pretty much ever. Especially a vaccine that is not based on principles that have worked in the past. I am not wild about live recombinant vaccines either.

There will be multiple vaccines brought to market from the huge effort currently taking place to find one. I am saying this as the pro-est of pro vaccinators (my kids have literally had everything going, including the annual flu shot and the HPV vaccine)....to be honest, I will probably cross my fingers and hang out for an old school one - virus fragment plus proven adjuvant.

Vaccine testing can get it wrong. The dengue vaccine in the Phillipines did a lot of damage, both directly and in people’s trust of vaccines in general (hence the devastating measles outbreak there). And it was brought to market very carefully.
 

raenndrops

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I don't know... perhaps it is different for people in the medical/allied health fields because we know just how much science is NOT an exact science. How many times has science been wrong on nutrition, medications, exercise, premature babies, genetic conditions - the list goes on. Everyone believes the information is correct - until it is not anymore, until more research comes along. I have a chronic, debilitating condition. I trust my specialist's input but I do not rely on him for all of my information. I do the research before and after each appt and then collaborate with him to make decisions based on my individual needs. We all need to take more interest in our own health and not rely solely on the experts.

PS - my laptop's "A" key is sticking so I apologize in advance if there are any missing 'a's in the replies. I tried to correct them all.
I tell all of my doctors that I am an expert in ME. I know me better than everyone ... ever since I was almost 18 and found out (or rather my thinking was confirmed) that in Jr. High, a doctor had me on a med for 18 months that I shouldn't have ever been on, but even if it was appropriate for me to be on it, it should have been limited to only a few weeks - maximum.
Ever since then, I trust my gut. I research. I learn how my body reacts to things (and I often have atypical presentations for many problems).
 
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