Parents Hoping for Some Advice RE Xcel vs JO

[twinmomma]

I'm not going to say she's a future Olympian, but I think she is the right size and flexibility to pursue the sport perhaps for at least college.

I feel the need to reiterate that at 4, you have NO idea whether or not she can pursue this sport through college. Let the child have fun. Relax. Breathe. Enjoy the process. Maybe Xcel is her path. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

For the record, though, size has nothing to do with strength. I have a very tiny DD and strength is her, well, strength. Flexibility is where she struggles. It's likely the current gym said she's not strong enough for preteam simply because she isn't strong enough - not because the other girls are older. Gymnastics is one of those sports that doesn't have a clear age progression. You have girls who make L9 by 10 years old and others who don't get there until high school. One of the things you'll need to learn really quickly is this sport is a marathon, not a sprint and everyone moves at their own pace.

 

[wgymmom]

Why are we talking about college gym at 4? For crying out loud there are Olympians who didn't start that early. She's a CHILD. She's a BABY for goodness sake. As long as her training is allowing her to improve and develop a love of the sport and she is being treated well, leave her where she is right now. In six months she might want to do soccer with her friend or play little league. You don't have to make life decisions right now.

And on top of this, SHE needs to be making the decision to pursue college gym, or she could end up pretty resentful of everything. And even then, if she's 4, she certainly doesn't know all that that would entail. My DD loved gymnastics at 4, but she probably didn't even know college existed. NOW she wants to do college gym, but she's 12 - light years' difference there.

All I can say is that I would give the JO gym a try and take a load off.

Oh and, on the boredom thing... My gymmie went through non-competitive until she was 9. She did versions of the old L4 and L5 routines at the non-comp gym. Was she bored when she re-did them at the comp gym? Nope. Not in the slightest. She loves gym so much that she would literally put up with almost anything just to get to do it.

 

[wgymmom]

And I think my urgency is because fundamentals are not something you can correct later. You can be an All Star in MLB and never pick up a bat until you're 16 years old. See Royals center fielder Lorenzo Cain for proof. That isn't possible in this sport. The way the media and some posters here (although not in this thread) makes it seem like if the parents make a wrong choice at 5 then the gymnast's future is doomed.

This is not at all correct. As I said before, my DD was noncompetitive until she was 9. She had skills, but the form was unbelievably sloppy. Nothing against her first gym; they did a great job of letting her love the sport. She moved to a competitive gym and cleaned up her form SO much that she's gotten 35-37 AA scores all three years in compulsories and has been used as the demonstration gymnast by her new HC - who, by the way, is well-known and connected enough to have been mentioned on this board. She is a serious candidate for D1/D2 college gym.

So no, the kid isn't screwed if she's not in "the right spot" by age 5.



Where's Dunno when you need him?

 

[MeetDirector]

Those of you questioning gymauntie's motivation are missing the point. She is trying to gather information so that, as a family, they are armed to make decisions about her niece's gymnastics path forward. Yes, she is young, but should she have a real passion for this crazy sport, she will need to get to a JO club; Xcel only will not get her to high-level optionals and what might lie beyond. And, the unfortunate truth of some clubs around the country is that they will not take you into their JO program beyond the age of 5 (or 6, or whatever). GymAuntie is trying to figure out what most of us have learned over the years; she just doesn't want to take years to learn it like we did.

Is there anything wrong with staying at the current gym another year (or 2)? Of course not, it will foster her love of the sport. However, if that length of time puts her outside the window of acceptability at the only other club available to her, then it is wrong to stay there. No one can predict the future, but why put an artificial limit in place when there is an alternative. GymAuntie has to do some homework on the JO options available and then go forward fully armed with information for the family to make a decision.

Good Luck to you GymAuntie!

 

[Sasha]

Those of you questioning gymauntie's motivation are missing the point. She is trying to gather information so that, as a family, they are armed to make decisions about her niece's gymnastics path forward. Yes, she is young, but should she have a real passion for this crazy sport, she will need to get to a JO club; Xcel only will not get her to high-level optionals and what might lie beyond. And, the unfortunate truth of some clubs around the country is that they will not take you into their JO program beyond the age of 5 (or 6, or whatever). GymAuntie is trying to figure out what most of us have learned over the years; she just doesn't want to take years to learn it like we did.

Is there anything wrong with staying at the current gym another year (or 2)? Of course not, it will foster her love of the sport. However, if that length of time puts her outside the window of acceptability at the only other club available to her, then it is wrong to stay there. No one can predict the future, but why put an artificial limit in place when there is an alternative. GymAuntie has to do some homework on the JO options available and then go forward fully armed with information for the family to make a decision.

Good Luck to you GymAuntie!

Perfectly stated, @MeetDirector !

I'm in the "sure wish I knew more about this when my DD was 5" camp. Fortunately, we have JO options near us for a kid who starts later or transfers from Xcel, but the point is not everyone does. Might as well know this in advance. Parents/caregivers provide opportunities; the kid takes it from there. Most of us just want to provide the best opportunities we are able that will fit the both child's readiness/interests and our family's resources.

 

[raenndrops]

A couple of things that have struck me in this thread -

OP has mentioned fear of boredom a couple of times. Repeating a level doesn't mean being bored. In rec levels, the girls generally keep working skills as they are ready for them. They do not have the same expectations in terms of form that team is going to have. Your niece is more likely to work more fun skills in rec than in team (at least a lot of the time). Preteam and team are going to be boring much of the time. Conditioning, working perfect handstand shapes, learning progressions for weeks and months before actually trying a skill, etc.

I know my DD has friends who are in rec who can throw higher skills than she can. Now, they aren't nearly as pretty as my DD'S, but they work skills in a different order and spend more time d9k g fun skills than working perfection.

At OPs current gym, her niece is doing strength and conditioning in her classes... It seems like team expectations to me... unless they slack off when kids get to team.
This is why, if she stays and has to repeat kindergym, they would add tumbling... so she can work skills too.

 

[GymAuntie]

A couple of things that have struck me in this thread -

OP has mentioned fear of boredom a couple of times. Repeating a level doesn't mean being bored. In rec levels, the girls generally keep working skills as they are ready for them. They do not have the same expectations in terms of form that team is going to have. Your niece is more likely to work more fun skills in rec than in team (at least a lot of the time). Preteam and team are going to be boring much of the time. Conditioning, working perfect handstand shapes, learning progressions for weeks and months before actually trying a skill, etc.

I know my DD has friends who are in rec who can throw higher skills than she can. Now, they aren't nearly as pretty as my DD'S, but they work skills in a different order and spend more time d9k g fun skills than working perfection.

Lastly, from my count, your niece has been at 3 gyms already at 4 years old. Definitely leave where you are if it doesn't give you what you want for her. But, gym hopping can eventually lead to problems - your niece's may ultimately not be welcomed back if you continue to move her back and forth.

I want to clarify what I meant by boredom. Kindergym is not about skills at all. They might do cartwheels for 10 minutes one class per month and then walk the beam the same time the next month. Regular kindergym is more play, but her advanced class is more for conditioning and getting ready to go on to preteam. They do pull ups, rope climbing, and wall climb pretty much every class. Then they alternate other things in with it -- something different each week. But she was more excited about her preteam class she went to for a month because they mixed in more skills (mainly because of more time). She's not going to be throwing skills in kindergym at all and that's fine. Just seeing her reaction to preteam vs kindergym is what leads to the boredom fear.

And no she's not been at 3 gyms unless you count the trial class. She was at a local (small town) gym that does not do comps and is just a 2 day a week program that exists mostly to get girls ready for cheer. She did mommy and me there and then took I think 2 months of intro class there when my sister realized that for serious gymnastics it was not the place to be. It was fine for Mommy and Me of course. She moved to her current gym because she wanted a USA Gymnastics sanctioned program where instructors had a bit of a clue. The previous gym had the bigger girls running over the little ones and instructors who only had cheer tumbling training. They had the little class trying to do back handsprings right off the bat. If she wanted to cheer that might have been fine but even if she wanted to cheer it was my sister who said she'd rather feel confident in the instructors and have her learning more safely and correctly. She did 2 trials -- one at current gym and one at the other gym. Mom decided current gym had the better preschool class and went with that. LO liked both places and didn't care as long as she was flipping. It came down to having a better feeling about the teacher.

 

[GymAuntie]

At OPs current gym, her niece is doing strength and conditioning in her classes... It seems like team expectations to me... unless they slack off when kids get to team.
This is why, if she stays and has to repeat kindergym, they would add tumbling... so she can work skills too.

Correct. The class she's in is to prep for preteam. Most of the kids in her class last year were in kindergarten and a lot bigger than her. She started off in that class as opposed to regular rec kindergym because my sister wanted to try it, and they said she could keep up just fine despite never having any serious training. It's not team expectations per se but they have that class to move them in that direction. So yes that is why we'd add tumbling to the mix so she'd have a bit of both. And maybe that's the route we should go to give her a year to decide how she likes it. As long as it's not going to "stunt her growth" as a gymnast, I'm good with that.

The fact is I love my niece more than I love anyone else in this world, and I do want to give her the best opportunities possible. I won't be disappointed if she doesn't do this or decides it's for fun or quits to do something else. I want her to enjoy it as long as she wants though, and she is. She never has to compete a day if she doesn't want to, but the conditioning she's getting from this sport will only help in other sports or for her own fitness. I see a world of difference in her since September and it's not because she's grown. It's because the class has made her stronger and more agile. She is just healthier. I don't know if it's any correlation, but she was born with a low iGa count and had a horrible immune system, but this year her iGa was up 3x what it was this time last year. She's very near normal now. I don't think it's all a credit to gymnastics, but I'm sure healthy muscles help a lot.

I have nothing but love and respect for the current gym. The owner is in a class by himself and his staff is amazing. He just had to make a business decision to go with Xcel because that was best for his bottom line. As a business owner, I'd probably do the same thing. We've recommended the gym to others and are really grateful for what they've done for our LO. And I have no doubt she'll continue to grow as long as she's there.

One thing I did read on here about JO vs Xcel is that while the same skills are taught JO is a more precise technique. There's a lot of attention to detail vs Xcel. I know she'll learn plenty at current gym and know they do a great job with their girls. I just want to be sure she does get those nitpicky details as well so she's ready to transition should she choose to. I know in baseball if you learn bad habits early then they can stick so that's my concern here as well. It's not to say that I think the coaches are bad but they might not be as detail oriented as JO because their gymnasts don't have to be. The competency of this gym is not in question, only the business direction and whether it's right for our LO.

 

[GymAuntie]

I wavered back and forth about whether to even post here. I was afraid people from the current gym might read it and treat her differently or stop investing in her because they would rather focus on someone else who's in it for the long haul. Truth is with these people I can't see that happening. My niece has zero control over what I say and what I explore, and she's the one being taught. Plus I'm sure if she does leave down the line then they will want her to be at her best to show that they are a competitive gym who can keep up. Should anyone from that gym read this, I hope they know that the gym isn't the problem at all. It's the possible direction we may want to go and them not having that program. It's like having a kid who wants to learn Spanish. You could be in the greatest school ever but if it doesn't offer Spanish you still will consider moving your kid to get them what they need. I hope I've made that clear so the gym doesn't get hurt feelings. Gymnastics does not seem to be a popular sport in this area and girls who do it want to devote less time to it than the girls at say Chow's or WOGA. There's probably only enough girls for 2 serious JO programs. The other gyms fill a niche which is fantastic. Ultimately we may end up in that niche, but just in case, it's good to cover your bases IMO.

Honestly I think I'll just leave it alone for this year. Her mother has the information and knows a move is imminent. In fact next year when she starts school her preteam and bronze team at current gym starts at 3:30 and she is not out of school until 3:15 and there's a 30-40 minute drive depending on which school her parents choose. The other gym is 5 minutes from one school and 10 from another that her parents are seriously considering. So I'd say next year is a given regardless because of the time conflict. If she decides to make the move this year, fine. If not she will have another year in a great gym and will continue to grow and get stronger. The knowledge and insight I've gotten here has helped tremendously in making peace with waiting, and it's greatly appreciated.

 

[raenndrops]

One thing I did read on here about JO vs Xcel is that while the same skills are taught JO is a more precise technique. There's a lot of attention to detail vs Xcel. I know she'll learn plenty at current gym and know they do a great job with their girls. I just want to be sure she does get those nitpicky details as well so she's ready to transition should she choose to.

A good Xcel program (which it sounds like this gym may have), is nitpicky about details... in the skills and the fluff...
The thing you are probably reading about in the Xcel vs JO is for the compulsory routines...
There, if the text says that your hands have to be lower middle and you put them anywhere other than lower middle, there is a deduction... so the coaches teaching the routines have to critique every little thing. In Xcel, the routines don't have an "established" mark of perfection. If you do each of your skills perfectly and have amplitude and dynamics and straight legs and pointed toes, then you can have a perfect score... without a deduction because your arms were 15º higher than some manual said they should be at "x" point in your routine.

This coming from someone who has been on both sides and who still helps nitpick the JO compulsory routines and the Xcel routines at the gym!

 

[GymAuntie]

A good Xcel program (which it sounds like this gym may have), is nitpicky about details... in the skills and the fluff...
The thing you are probably reading about in the Xcel vs JO is for the compulsory routines...
There, if the text says that your hands have to be lower middle and you put them anywhere other than lower middle, there is a deduction... so the coaches teaching the routines have to critique every little thing. In Xcel, the routines don't have an "established" mark of perfection. If you do each of your skills perfectly and have amplitude and dynamics and straight legs and pointed toes, then you can have a perfect score... without a deduction because your arms were 15º higher than some manual said they should be at "x" point in your routine.

This coming from someone who has been on both sides and who still helps nitpick the JO compulsory routines and the Xcel routines at the gym!

Thank you. This post actually helps me understand better than any so far as for real differences between the 2. As long as Xcel won't make her develop the gymnastics equipment to a "hitchy swing" then it sounds fine early on.

My dad has passed on talented kids before because they have a hitch in their swing that's uncorrectable. He says those are developed at young ages and just can't be rectified because bad habits are often learned early. The same kid has good stats for his level but just won't be able to hang in professional ball and many times even college ball.

The mindset our family has comes from my dad's job because we do hear a lot about what could have been if only..... I think when you are raised in that kind of environment you do look at the world differently. A lot of people saying she needs to have fun because she doesn't know probably don't have the same way of looking at the world because they have never spent any time in our mindset. I doubt we'd be thinking the same if dad were a plumber or a lawyer.

Just please everyone remember that no one is pushing or not letting her have fun. Last night my sister sent a picture of her in the yard. She's picked up a large stick and was holding it like a bat. Her father was pitching a rubber baseball to her so she could practice her "poppy game." Then she ran and did cartwheels for a while. Then she kicked the soccer ball. Then she did something else. Pretty much anything fun for her is sporty or artistic if she wants down time. She's a happy kid. We just don't want her to turn into one of those "what could have been if only....." stories because those stories are usually a result of parental error in not selecting the right situation not anything the kid did or had any control over.

 

[profmom]

Xcel or JO, it all depends on the program. There are Xcel programs that train fundamentals very well, and JO programs that do it poorly. However, from what I've seen and heard around here, if a child moves from a gym that didn't train fundamentals well to a gym that does, the new gym can usually back things up and fix them. How much of a problem this is and how long it will take is totally variable, of course.

The median JO program will train foundational skills more slowly and demand more mastery than the median Xcel program, and the good JO program will continue to work on foundations even when the kids have progressed on to more advanced skills. If all goes as planned, both of my kids will be competing level 8 next year, and both have a weekly rotation this summer to work on their roundoffs, a skill that most preteamers can do. Both are also doing a lot of work to improve their giants, which DD has been competing for three years and DS a year. But do keep in mind that medians tell you nothing about individual programs!

 

[B.Gold]

We just don't want her to turn into one of those "what could have been if only....." stories because those stories are usually a result of parental error in not selecting the right situation not anything the kid did or had any control over.

OH NO!!! now MY years of angst is setting back in thanks a lot GymAuntie!!

This reminds me of my friend who is an O.T. for people with brain injuries....she now trys to avoid all left hand turns while driving.

 

[twinmomma]

Thank you. This post actually helps me understand better than any so far as for real differences between the 2. As long as Xcel won't make her develop the gymnastics equipment to a "hitchy swing" then it sounds fine early on.

My dad has passed on talented kids before because they have a hitch in their swing that's uncorrectable. He says those are developed at young ages and just can't be rectified because bad habits are often learned early. The same kid has good stats for his level but just won't be able to hang in professional ball and many times even college ball.

The mindset our family has comes from my dad's job because we do hear a lot about what could have been if only..... I think when you are raised in that kind of environment you do look at the world differently. A lot of people saying she needs to have fun because she doesn't know probably don't have the same way of looking at the world because they have never spent any time in our mindset. I doubt we'd be thinking the same if dad were a plumber or a lawyer.

Just please everyone remember that no one is pushing or not letting her have fun. Last night my sister sent a picture of her in the yard. She's picked up a large stick and was holding it like a bat. Her father was pitching a rubber baseball to her so she could practice her "poppy game." Then she ran and did cartwheels for a while. Then she kicked the soccer ball. Then she did something else. Pretty much anything fun for her is sporty or artistic if she wants down time. She's a happy kid. We just don't want her to turn into one of those "what could have been if only....." stories because those stories are usually a result of parental error in not selecting the right situation not anything the kid did or had any control over.

Sorry, this is a load of bunk. Plenty of MLB players have made corrections to old bad habits and gone on to improve. Just because your dad doesn't want to put in the work, doesn't mean it can't be done. My brother is a high school baseball coach who currently has former students playing major league ball. The same goes for gymnasts. Yes, are bad habits hard to correct? Sure. But it's not impossible. This kind of mindset when it comes to kids really ticks me off. Not giving a hard working kid a chance because it might take some extra work on the coach's part is awful.

 

[B.Gold]

@twinmomma I believe she posted her dad is a scout not a coach.

 

[gymdog]

Sorry, this is a load of bunk. Plenty of MLB players have made corrections to old bad habits and gone on to improve. Just because your dad doesn't want to put in the work, doesn't mean it can't be done. My brother is a high school baseball coach who currently has former students playing major league ball. The same goes for gymnasts. Yes, are bad habits hard to correct? Sure. But it's not impossible. This kind of mindset when it comes to kids really ticks me off. Not giving a hard working kid a chance because it might take some extra work on the coach's part is awful.

Well, in anything, it just depends on the gifted ness of the individual. But I would generally agree at some point in gymnastics you would need to start receiving high level training if you want to have good technique. otherwise, there's a pretty good chance you're gonna get injured or burned out or stall out due to fear/issues from incorrect techniques and lack of physical preparation. It doesn't mean you can't DO gymnastics. But you're probably not going to randomly get on an NCAA team if you show some pretty good attributes but were not taught correct technique and therefore can't appropriate connect the skills and routines. I assumed that's the kind of thing we're talking about here. The dad is scouting. There are likely enough good athletes with correct technique to fill most spots...so that's what it's gonna come down to. It's the same in gymnastics.

 

[GymAuntie]

Sorry, this is a load of bunk. Plenty of MLB players have made corrections to old bad habits and gone on to improve. Just because your dad doesn't want to put in the work, doesn't mean it can't be done. My brother is a high school baseball coach who currently has former students playing major league ball. The same goes for gymnasts. Yes, are bad habits hard to correct? Sure. But it's not impossible. This kind of mindset when it comes to kids really ticks me off. Not giving a hard working kid a chance because it might take some extra work on the coach's part is awful.

Excuse me but my father is not a coach. He's a scout, and he follows company policy. He knows what's correctable and what isn't and he has had to pass on gifted athletes who have picked up too many bad habits from poor coaching. It happens. Just because your brother isn't one of those coaches does not mean that there aren't plenty of them out there (especially in small towns where baseball is very low budget), and I resent the comment that my father isn't willing to put in the work. It's not his job to do that. It's his job to EVALUATE a prospect to determine if he's got the tools and if his bad habits can be corrected. Then guess what, his boss comes in and checks too. And if he's a high enough draft pick, his boss's boss and so forth all the way up to the General Manager in the high draft prospects. Nobody is going to give a kid a million dollars (or even $100K) without making sure he has potential. But once they sign on the dotted line, the scout's job is done so please get your facts straight before you criticize people for not "wanting to work."

There are also plenty of MLB teams who only look at high school athletes because they are overused in college and pick up too many bad habits. In contrast other organizations only look at college athletes because of the maturity level and many having played D1 ball at competitive programs so they're good under pressure. There's no one right answer. All any of us know that the majority of kids drafted in a given year will never play a game in the big leagues. Only 25 roster spots are open (40 after Labor Day) so the odds are against any athlete much the same as they are in gymnastics in competing in the Olympics or for the Stanford's and Georgia's of the world.

 

[MeetDirector]

GymAuntie -

I agree with you 100%. You are trying to relate the crazy sport of gymnastics to something that you are very familiar with (I am a baseball nut and totally get what you are talking about). I believe that you are doing the right thing in trying to gather information as you see a spark of gymnastics talent in your niece.

Good luck and hang in there through all of the naysayers that are out there.

 

[twinmomma]

I apologize I misunderstood his role. I stand by my statement that a COACH should be willing to work for a talented kid. Scouting is different.

 

[GymAuntie]

I apologize I misunderstood his role. I stand by my statement that a COACH should be willing to work for a talented kid. Scouting is different.

I won't argue with you that coaches can and should have more leeway, and I appreciate your apology and accept it wholeheartedly. I do think though that with only 2 JO programs in a 100 mile radius that the JO programs can evaluate more like scouts and stick the "hitchy" ones in Xcel or even keep them in rec more easily. I don't know that this is what happens, but it very well could, and it was something I was afraid of.

I used the baseball analogy because I thought it would help articulate my concerns as this is a language I've been speaking my whole life. I didn't mean to turn it into an argument about coaching, and baseball coaching in particular. I just wanted to put it in a way I understand and could say it to hopefully make sense.

My niece is actually sick right now and won't return to the gym until September so the debate is pretty much dead this year anyway. She's not so sick that she needs to be out that long, but she has a 3 week European trip already scheduled for August so she was already out the month of August. She will return either the last week of August or the first week of September. Her mother doesn't want to send her back this week because she wants to keep her well for her trip. At 4 I find that acceptable, particularly for someone born with a low iGa count. It's not like 1 week will make any difference.

I'm going to keep an open dialogue with the other gym. The current gym will re-evaluate her for pre-team in September when she returns. She is getting stronger, but I'm not sure if 6-8 weeks out of the gym will get in the way of that. I'm thinking maybe this should be the year she tries soccer and basketball and cheerleading and whatever else to see where her interests lie and go from there (and please God don't let it be soccer because I've never gotten that game.....lol). After the information in this thread, I no longer thing that an early start is essential, especially since she won't even start kindergarten for another year. Let her mature a bit and continue to develop her own personality and go from there. I do appreciate the feedback.