WAG how do you measure fast twitch vs slow twitch and why is fast better in gymnastics?

[christabelle]

Sorry I did try searching CB and google but I can only see that fast twitch is favored in gymnastics.

I'm curious about why?

And how do you test for it (assuming you've no intention of doing medical tests).

I'm also curious if fast is better for all gym sports (tramp/etc) or just WAG?

Thanks.

 

[sglemon]

That is interesting and I can't wait to see what people say.

Sorry, I am no help, but to say my slow twitch DD no longer does gymnastics. She couldn't get up to speed on vault, and her tumbling was weak. She has difficulty on the soccer/football pitch with sprinting. She just doesn't have that burst of speed. She is now playing ceter mid and runs the whole time back and forth on the pitch. We put her in swimming after gymnastic and saw her 50m pace was the same, no matter what distance 100m, 500m, etc... Made her a stronger middle and distance swimmer. Now she is running cross county and it is apparent she is slow twitched, her 5k are 22-23 minutes at age 11, with her 3-5 K at a much faster pace then her 1-2K.

 

[catou]

The only way to mesure these fibers is by a biopsy. An interesting thing is that there are 3 major types of fibers. I, IIa and IIB fibers IIa have the capacity to change to become one of the other types.

Fast twitch fibers are good for gymnastics has they help to make a rapid and strong contractions. They are anaerobic so they get tired more easily. Slow twitch fibers need more oxygen and gymnastics is not an aerobic sport so these fibers aren't the ones favoured. But they are great for endurance sports. You should see the difference in the muscle composition of a 100m sprinter and a marathoner... pretty impressive.

 

[Muddlethru]

As you already know, our muscle fibers can be broken down into slow and fast twitch (fast twitch can be further categorized into Type 11a and Type IIb). Anyway, slow muscles are more efficient at using oxygen to generate more fuel for continuous, extended muscle contractions over a long time. They fire more slowly than fast twitch fibers and can go for a long time before they fatigue. T

Fast fibers use anaerobic (does not use oxygen) metabolism to create fuel, they are much better at generating short bursts of strength or speed than slow muscles. However, they fatigue more quickly. Type IIa fast twitch is a combination of both. Type IIb fast twitch fibers are the "classic" fast twitch muscle fibers that excel at producing quick, powerful bursts of speed but it also has a much faster rate of fatigue and can't last as long before it needs rest.

So without testing, if you can go long periods of time without tiring, you probably have more slower twitch fibers. If you have strong, powerful bursts of speed and energy but tire easily, then you have more fast twitch. Many sports benefit from fast twitch fibers, not just gymnastics.

The proportion of twitch fibers in your muscles is determined genetically and is believed not to change with training. Although your slow twitch fibers cannot be converted to fast twitch and vice versa, with general training they can gain more of the characteristics of the other muscle fiber. Genetics determines the range within which you can improve; training determines where your current abilities fall within that range.

I know the above because I am (or was) a marathon runner and as such read many training books to improve my performance. As it more specifically applies to gymnastics, dunno is best at explaining this.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

that was a great definition ^^^i have nothing to add. you won't find a slow twitch athlete performing double layouts on floor. and fibers can not be converted. they are what you are born with. unless, of course, you mess around with ped's.

 

[iwannacoach]

Double layouts + slow twitch = no way.......But I once had a slow twitch kid who never fell off beam. She just couldn't react fast enough to "over react" herself off the beam the way many kids do.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i believe that ^^^.

 

[kecks]

in track there's an old saying: you can't make a donkey a race horse. and that's just true. slow twitch folks can never ever get fast enough or jump high enough etc. to be any real good at fast high level sports (like sprinting, jumping, soccer and the like, olympic lifting, gymnastics, combat sports...). they will be terrific at endurance events so.

 

[mimi]

So is there any way to tell if your child is a slow twitch or fast twitch athlete before they are a high enough level gymnast to be doing double layouts? My dd is a really fast sprinter but get "a stitch" in her side pretty quickly when playing soccer, tag, etc. She is a powerful vaulter and has a layout (no double though...)...

 

[wallinbl]

So is there any way to tell if your child is a slow twitch or fast twitch athlete before they are a high enough level gymnast to be doing double layouts? My dd is a really fast sprinter but get "a stitch" in her side pretty quickly when playing soccer, tag, etc. She is a powerful vaulter and has a layout (no double though...)...

You've answered your own question!

 

[Bajanswife]

My DD is without a doubt a fast-twitch kid - very powerful, but gets tired quickly. Many people just can't understand how she can be so fit and muscular yet have no stamina! She used to win all the sprints at school sports against kids at least a head taller than her, but is not good at cross country.

I am the opposite - I just cannot get my legs to move quickly enough to sprint! My DD takes after her father, who is a powerhouse as well.

 

[sglemon]

So is there any way to tell if your child is a slow twitch or fast twitch athlete before they are a high enough level gymnast to be doing double layouts? My dd is a really fast sprinter but get "a stitch" in her side pretty quickly when playing soccer, tag, etc. She is a powerful vaulter and has a layout (no double though...)...

Usually fast sprinters = fast twitch, the stitch has nothing to do with it. That can come from the way she is breathing, too much water, etc... My slow twitch cross country runner, still gets stitches, and when she does, she modifies her breathing (slows it down, takes deeper breathes and tries to empty her lungs on the exhale) and stretches out the area with the stitch, as she continues to run. She also pays attention to what she eats and drinks before a race. The number on incidents has decreased dramatically, with her experience in running.

 

[Faith]

This is where I wonder if the uk elite track system might fall down....

Doing compulsories, with the difficulty limited, I wonder if it selects for the slower twitch kids who have beautiful handstand control, flexibility etc, but not necessarily power. Google for the uk range and conditioning routines to see what I mean.


Dd is pure power. Swings bars like a maniac, jumps higher, wins sprint tests and can beat all her peers in conditioning. But she has no control, overshoots, falls out if every press to handstand because she does it 4 times as fast. Dh, a coach (not gymnastics), suspects she might be super fast twitch. But obviously she can't do elite track as she hasn't the control for the r&c routine.


It's going to be interesting when they get to more serious tumbling and explosive moves though :lol:

 

[Coloradogymmie]

I think this is very interesting, but I have to wonder if genetics are the sole determining factor. From what i've read, most people are 50/50. Then, I read some statistics saying that marathon runners that have been tested can have up to 80% slow twitch or sprinters 80% fast twitch. These athletes had their muscles tested after how many years of serious conditioning that may have altered their ratios. I would be very interested to know what their ratios would have been before they started sports (impossible, I know). But that is my point. I have seen several short term studies (14 weeks long, etc) that tried to measure a change between type 1 and type 2 after a heavy conditioning period and some changes have been found (I think mostly capillary growth). But I have to wonder if over years and years of conditioning these ratios could change greatly? I don't think there has been enough studies to conclusively answer that question without it being mostly speculation. I think its really interesting and complicated. I do believe some people are more adaptive than others too.

 

[kecks]

i don't know much about endurance sports, but i do know that they are highly trainable - you can be a pretty good runner in masters competitions and the like if you apply yourself and work for it. same goes for junior compeitions up to regional level. above that it's talent + work, lots of work.

speed events are *totally* different so. i coach sprint and olympic lifting myself and have been on national team in track for years. sprinters are borne and not made. you can't keep up with talented people in short dashes (up top 800m) or jumping or throwing or olympic lifting when you don't have the right type of muscles. doesn't happen, even if you work your butt off and have the best coaching in the world. you will get a lot faster than you were before when you do that, but that will never ever be enough to just make it to regionals, let alone nationals or international competitions or the olympics in track. the talented ones need to start speed stuff in training early to reach their full potential as adults so - this 'window of opportunity' closes around age 12-13 for girls and 13-15 for boys. you have to do fast stuff during this time to get a good adult athlete.

 

[monkeysmom]

I think long distance is quite similar to the shorter distances, in that you can train really hard and get decent. However, definitely to be an elite or Div I quality distance runner, you need a genetic disposition for efficient conversion of oxygyn and blood sugar to energy (02 uptake??). Anyway, I do think there is very much of a self-fulfilling prophesy when it comes to competitive gymnastics based on body type. There is no question that gymnasts need adequate training and conditioning to become proficient, and if coaches screen little girls based on certain physical characteristics and only those girls get the training they need to even try competitive gymnastics (assuming their crystal balls are even accurate on that), then OF COURSE good athletes in the sport will predominately have those characteristics. Self-fulfilling prophesy. Where does genetics come into play for non-elite athletes? VERY difficult to determine that, given how much body type screening is happening of itty bitty girls at some gyms. However, to make it to the top "elite" level do there need to be some god-given physical gifts? Yes. Of course. But many sports will let many athletes and body types train hard and see what they can accomplish, and few are as self-selecting as gymnastics, where you aren't given a real chance to reach your potential and do team training at some gyms unless you have what is perceived as elite athlete potential body types, or know the preteam coaches etc. Even if that gym has only produced one successful elite athlete in the last ten years, buy hey hope springs etermal. Quite unfortunate in some ways. It's a private gym system, though, so it isn't going to change much. There is also a huge pool of kids with tougher socioeconomic situations who will never know if they could have been a great gymnast, because it takes financial resources to train in the private gym system in the US, and this sport is just not much available to folks who can't afford to pay for it. I understand that, since the owners are running a private business, and they can't survive or thrive unless it's a financially feasible business plan. I love distance running, anyone can training hard and see what happens. It doesn't take a lot of money, and you aren't "out on your rear" if you haven't been selected as having team potential when you are 4-8 years old. Put your foot to the line and the first one across the lines wins. Lace up your shoes and train as hard as you desire. It's a beautiful thing. Back to gymnastics, Excel is great in that more athletes are getting a chance to compete, but again, if certain body types are in Excel and they are getting half of the training and conditioning, coaches who don't spot as much etc., it is still a self-fulfilling prophesy in terms of who the "best" gymnasts are..... Just sayin.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I think long distance is quite similar to the shorter distances, in that you can train really hard and get decent. However, definitely to be an elite or Div I quality distance runner, you need a genetic disposition for efficient conversion of oxygyn and blood sugar to energy (02 uptake??). Anyway, I do think there is very much of a self-fulfilling prophesy when it comes to competitive gymnastics based on body type. There is no question that gymnasts need adequate training and conditioning to become proficient, and if coaches screen little girls based on certain physical characteristics and only those girls get the training they need to even try competitive gymnastics (assuming their crystal balls are even accurate on that), then OF COURSE good athletes in the sport will predominately have those characteristics. Self-fulfilling prophesy. Where does genetics come into play for non-elite athletes? VERY difficult to determine that, given how much body type screening is happening of itty bitty girls at some gyms. However, to make it to the top "elite" level do there need to be some god-given physical gifts? Yes. Of course. But many sports will let many athletes and body types train hard and see what they can accomplish, and few are as self-selecting as gymnastics, where you aren't given a real chance to reach your potential and do team training at some gyms unless you have what is perceived as elite athlete potential body types, or know the preteam coaches etc. Even if that gym has only produced one successful elite athlete in the last ten years, buy hey hope springs etermal. Quite unfortunate in some ways. It's a private gym system, though, so it isn't going to change much. There is also a huge pool of kids with tougher socioeconomic situations who will never know if they could have been a great gymnast, because it takes financial resources to train in the private gym system in the US, and this sport is just not much available to folks who can't afford to pay for it. I understand that, since the owners are running a private business, and they can't survive or thrive unless it's a financially feasible business plan. I love distance running, anyone can training hard and see what happens. It doesn't take a lot of money, and you aren't "out on your rear" if you haven't been selected as having team potential when you are 4-8 years old. Put your foot to the line and the first one across the lines wins. Lace up your shoes and train as hard as you desire. It's a beautiful thing. Back to gymnastics, Excel is great in that more athletes are getting a chance to compete, but again, if certain body types are in Excel and they are getting half of the training and conditioning, coaches who don't spot as much etc., it is still a self-fulfilling prophesy in terms of who the "best" gymnasts are..... Just sayin.

what's in bold is incorrect. if you take the best conditioned athlete, say Gabby who is fast twitch, and take the best conditioned athlete in marathon running and is slow twitch (sorry, i don't follow the sport) and they equally train for a marathon, poor Gabby will be sucking wind at the 3 mile mark and hit the wall at 4. the marathon runner will probably come back around and lap her twice.

conversely, if they both train for a 100 meter sprint, Gabby will be to the finish line before the marathon runner hits the 60 meter mark.

this is not a self fulfilling prophecy. it is biologic fact. that's all. in the old days we used to say "don't ask a gymnast to run a mile for a Camel, ask the smoker to run for him instead".......get the irony?

 

[monkeysmom]

Ha! Yes, I get the irony. However, as a former athlete of sports involving round balls who trained hard enough to run a 5:25 mile (a long time ago) and a sub-4 hour marathon, I strongly believe that even a gymnast or former gymnast (providing they are willing to put in the work and build up their miles on the pavement) could become a decent, if maybe not a "great" or "elite" distance runner. But not with the training they get in the gym--they would need to put in the miles under their shoes. Don't under estimate training. More girls could become decent competitive gymnasts (if maybe not great or elite) if they had access to the training and conditioning required to realize their potential. And if their parents had the money. And if they didn't get screened out of the system at some gyms based on what they looked like at age 4 or 5. It's just much tougher in gymnastics to get the kind of coaching, conditioning and training hours you need to realize your potential versus some other sports, where a broader spectrum of kids get the chance, and some rise to the top based on what they accomplish versus being told they shouldn't bother trying..... Just sayin. Picking only certain body "types" at an itty bitty age to to get conditioning, coaching, repetition and training which are integral to success in this sport is the very definition of a self-fulfulling prophesy. It is a prediction that causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to the dynamics of belief and behaviour. You believe something that may or may not be true, and then take certain actions to ensure it is true. Really a ridiculously complicated way for me to basically say that gymnastics has historically been no where near the middle of the bell curve when it comes to accessilibity. Only a tiny portion of the potentially good or even great gymnasts ever get the opportunity to even try competing in the sport.

 

[mimi]

Ha! Yes, I get the irony. However, as a former athlete of sports involving round balls who trained hard enough to run a 5:25 mile (a long time ago) and a sub-4 hour marathon, I strongly believe that even a gymnast or former gymnast (providing they are willing to put in the work and build up their miles on the pavement) could become a decent, if maybe not a "great" or "elite" distance runner. But not with the training they get in the gym--they would need to put in the miles under their shoes. Don't under estimate training. More girls could become decent competitive gymnasts (if maybe not great or elite) if they had access to the training and conditioning required to realize their potential. And if their parents had the money. And if they didn't get screened out of the system at some gyms based on what they looked like at age 4 or 5. It's just much tougher in gymnastics to get the kind of coaching, conditioning and training hours you need to realize your potential versus some other sports, where a broader spectrum of kids get the chance, and some rise to the top based on what they accomplish versus being told they shouldn't bother trying..... Just sayin. Picking only certain body "types" at an itty bitty age to to get conditioning, coaching, repetition and training which are integral to success in this sport is the very definition of a self-fulfulling prophesy. It is a prediction that causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to the dynamics of belief and behaviour. You believe something that may or may not be true, and then take certain actions to ensure it is true. Really a ridiculously complicated way for me to basically say that gymnastics has historically been no where near the middle of the bell curve when it comes to accessilibity. Only a tiny portion of the potentially good or even great gymnasts ever get the opportunity to even try competing in the sport.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I, too, played a sport involving round balls, and although I was very small, played through college at a D1 school. However, that being said, my size did catch up with me and create limitations at the college level. I was simply "bodied off" the ball by the other larger, stronger players and no amount of weight room training was able to bulk me up enough to make up for it.

I agree with not typecasting children too young in any sport. Kids should never be told they can't do things based on size. However, my teeny tiny dd was told this week at the pediatrician again, her adult height is projected at 4'10" give or take. For that reason, I will continue to steer her toward gymnastics, and probably gently steer her away from things like volleyball and basketball. I would never tell her that she couldn't do something, but I do think her body type plays a part in what she is more/less likely to be naturally good at.

 

[monkeysmom]

Also, wouldn't it be interesting for someone who had a few million spare dollars to clunk down money for gyms and training in several urban cities. Free training, but if you don't show up you're out. Safe haven after school. Rides home. Some free healthy snacks. Would love to see those suburban girls shaking in their leos when after a few years of development, the bad news bears of gymastics gyms march out in their $25 leotards to take on the competition. Just sayin. But you'd need to find the coaches. Well and that several million dollars would be a bit of a barrier.... among other things. But still kind of fun to imagine.