WAG Improvements on Front Front vault?

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Front front

So, I've been uptraining w/ the table trainer. Keep in mind you can't block as much as on a real table, and you can't see them, but someone is holding the other side of the table to keep it from wobbling so much.


Also, only 5th time doing one.

ANYWAY

So, because my teammates had states, and I don't have them for another month, I was sent over here to pit vault. I was working these, but because my coach was on floor, he couldn't offer many tips.

I'll ask him next time I work on these, but as I usually only work them when it's not my meet coming up, I don't get too much input on them. It's mostly videos that I show him after, when it's too late. Also, per usual :p, not too many people train this vault (usually tsuks and yurchenkos), so not too many other coaches have trained it before.


So, anyone have tips?
 
No tips, but one of our L9 girls does this vault and it looks amazing. She is very powerful and she places quite well with it. Good luck as you progress with it!
 
The obvious answer is before you land. ...
How is your air sense? Do you know when you are upright while in the air?

You are doing a front front. The second "front" is short for front tuck. Think about when you open up out of a front tuck. It SHOULD be similar timing. Going into the pit, you may still over-rotate some because the pit is lower than competition landing surface, but it will be closer.
 
The obvious answer is before you land. ...
How is your air sense? Do you know when you are upright while in the air?

You are doing a front front. The second "front" is short for front tuck. Think about when you open up out of a front tuck. It SHOULD be similar timing. Going into the pit, you may still over-rotate some because the pit is lower than competition landing surface, but it will be closer.
Well, yes before I land :rolleyes: But how soon? I like your explanation of do it like I do a front tuck. I'll try to fix it, then I'll add a mat
 
Main thing for this vault is just getting enough height and rotation off of your block. You need to be able to block off your hands and get enough height to pull 1.5 rotations out of it - and front saltos are often harder to turn over quickly than back. It's a difficult vault to land consistently, especially since the landing is blind.

The main drill that you can do is stacking up mats behind a vaulting table to about 1 ft higher than vault height and doing a FHS to your feet. You can also stack mats to just below vault height, trying to work up to vault height, and try to turn over your FHS enough that you are falling forward or doing a flyspring out of it, eventually maybe trying to miss your feet and do a dive roll. It's like a tsuk timer to your back, but forward.
 
This is not a vault to mess around with- double flipping forward is very dangerous and needs close supervision from experienced coaches as well as very good air awareness and consistency before a mat is added, it is not something to rush.
 
I'm not a coach, but here are some observations:
- Definitely needs more block. You're not pushing up off the table, but sort of across it, so you never rise much higher than the table. You can improve your block by coming into the table lower. See how far back you're hitting it? Now go look up Oksana Chusovitina or Dipa Karmakar competing a Produnova vault - they hit the table much lower. They almost run straight into it, which you probably don't want to do, but you can definitely employ some of their technique.
- Like someone else said, open out sooner.
- You need to rotate faster. You're tucking very soon - as your hands are still on the table. This might also reduce your block. If you tuck a bit later, you'll get extra rotating momentum and power from whipping your legs later.

These are my observations from 1) physics and 2) watching how elite gymnasts do it, so please if any of my ideas seem weird don't follow them, and instead ask your coach. Actually, just ask your coach before you try any of these haha
 
I'm not a coach, but here are some observations:
- Definitely needs more block. You're not pushing up off the table, but sort of across it, so you never rise much higher than the table. You can improve your block by coming into the table lower. See how far back you're hitting it? Now go look up Oksana Chusovitina or Dipa Karmakar competing a Produnova vault - they hit the table much lower. They almost run straight into it, which you probably don't want to do, but you can definitely employ some of their technique.
- Like someone else said, open out sooner.
- You need to rotate faster. You're tucking very soon - as your hands are still on the table. This might also reduce your block. If you tuck a bit later, you'll get extra rotating momentum and power from whipping your legs later.

These are my observations from 1) physics and 2) watching how elite gymnasts do it, so please if any of my ideas seem weird don't follow them, and instead ask your coach. Actually, just ask your coach before you try any of these haha
Thanks! Maybe I wasn't super clear - I've worked them with him a few times before, but I was working these by myself.

This is not a vault to mess around with- double flipping forward is very dangerous and needs close supervision from experienced coaches as well as very good air awareness and consistency before a mat is added, it is not something to rush.
And also, I said above, "I'll fix it then i'll add a mat." Don't worry ;)
 
It looks like you may be hitting the table a little high to get the block you want. I personally don't really like the user of a mini-tramp for vault. I think it tends to change the heel drive you get. I usually drop the table height if we're using a mini-tramp to force a faster turnover but that's just me. One girl I had that won regionals with a handspring-front came close to knocking the vault table over at states if that gives you any idea of how low I like to see the entry into the table for front entry vaults.
 
What type of usually gymnast does well with a front-front vault? I hear a lot about of comparisons between tsuk and yurchenko vaults, but not much about the front-front (though I see them score well in L9/10 and just saw one at an NCAA college regional meet). Do you look for gymnasts with a good handspring vault? Are they better for fast twitch gymnasts? Do they need a lot of power? Just curious since mine is working them for next year.
 
What type of usually gymnast does well with a front-front vault? I hear a lot about of comparisons between tsuk and yurchenko vaults, but not much about the front-front (though I see them score well in L9/10 and just saw one at an NCAA college regional meet). Do you look for gymnasts with a good handspring vault? Are they better for fast twitch gymnasts? Do they need a lot of power? Just curious since mine is working them for next year.
I have heard that the body position on the entry is a little different that a regular FHS vault for one thing....and you need a lot of power. We don't see it much, although we had one of our level 10s (she was amazing) score a 10.0 on it once! Beyond that, I know nothing! ;-)
 
Really, most of what makes or breaks a handspring front is power. Either you have enough speed in the run, enough punch on the board, and enough block, or you don't. It's hard to tell whether or not you have that from this short video, but to me it looks like you wouldn't with a springboard. How do you get more powerful? Conditioning. Handstand variations (presses, push-ups, holds, shoulder taps, etc) for the block, and plyos and squats (preferably with added weight) for the punch, spring training for the run.

Aside from that, there are two things that jump out at me. First, you're tucking too early, which cuts off your block. Second, you're staying tucked and never preparing for the landing.
For the first, focus on pushing the table down and forward as hard as you can, and getting the heels all the way over top. Try to keep your eyes on the table until your hands get all the way off it.
For the second, practice double fronts from a springboard. First, do them into the pit; when you can open up and land, do them onto a resi or a mat in the pit. This vault is very dangerous if you're just tucking and praying; you MUST have a strong handle on how to land a double front in order to do this vault successfully or even safely. If you have access to a decent trampoline and a coach who knows trampoline well, it would be a good idea to work some front one and three quarter saltos, as well as ballouts to your feet.

Also, cowboy. It is my very firm opinion that double fronts (and variants thereof, including handspring front vaults) should always be done with the knees separated.

When would you suggest I open up?

The fact that you are asking this strongly suggests to me that you are not ready to seriously train this skill, except into a loose foam pit (and even there, there are other skills I'd focus on first)

The exact timing will vary, but it's something you have to develop a feel for. There's nothing any of us can tell you that will help with this; you just need to keep working double fronts and drills for double fronts until you develop a feel for when to open out to land. Let me say again: THIS SKILL IS DANGEROUS if you don't know where you are in the air, and it looks and sounds like you don't.

Sorry if all that comes across as rude, but I'd rather you be offended by my bluntness than seriously injured because you have an inaccurate sense of your readiness for this skill.

To develop the air sense for this, work ballouts on trampoline (preferably with a coach who knows their trampoline stuff really well), and once you get the ballout to your feet, work it from a progressively lower bounce. Work double fronts into a loose foam pit until you are landing on your feet EVERY SINGLE TIME, then work them onto a mat in the pit until you are landing on your feet EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Until you have a very strong sense of where you are in the air on a double front, you should not even contemplate attempting this vault except into a loose foam pit.
 
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Also, cowboy. It is my very firm opinion that double fronts (and variants thereof, including handspring front vaults) should always be done with the knees separated.

The NCAA gymnast I just saw compete this vault did it cowboy style. Is there a deduction for that body shape? It looks kind of ugly, but I vaguely recall Nastia using cowboy position on some skills.
 
The NCAA gymnast I just saw compete this vault did it cowboy style. Is there a deduction for that body shape? It looks kind of ugly, but I vaguely recall Nastia using cowboy position on some skills.

There is a small deduction, but there are three reasons gymnasts should cowboy anyway:

1) If judges are watching the skill from the side, the cowboy can be difficult to see
2) Even if they see it, many judges won't bother taking the deduction, because
3) It is significantly more dangerous with knees together. A short landing with knees together is likely to lead to a broken nose, or other major injuries to the face. It's simply not worth the risk for one or two more tenths.
 

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