JO Event specialists

[Geoffrey Taucer]

What about somebody who just wants to do bars? There is no other sport for them. Suppose a girl has injuries or chronic joint problems that make floor and vault problematic. If we allow specialization, they can continue to compete on the events they can still do.

 

[bogwoppit]

Hay Shawn,

Lets have this chat again in five years when perhaps your DD has struggled with injury for two years, loves the sport, still wants to compete and have all the same opportunities as the healthy gymnasts.

These kids are not Olympics bound, we are talking about JO, and these girls work just as hard.

Read the thread in the parents forum about the little girl who was told that even though she qualified to States, she cannot go due to injury. Now if she could specialize maybe she'd still be going.

Gymnastics is a children's sport on the womens side, there are very few WAG gymnasts competing past 18 years of age. To encourage kids to stay involved is a great thing. Elitism is great, but it isn't lucrative enough to support the coaches in the USA! Diversification is the name of the game, to keep kids in and also to keep people in jobs.

Just another take on it.....

 

[Livinatthegym]

Lets have this chat again in five years when perhaps your DD has struggled with injury for two years, loves the sport, still wants to compete and have all the same opportunities as the healthy gymnasts.

These kids are not Olympics bound, we are talking about JO, and these girls work just as hard.

Read the thread in the parents forum about the little girl who was told that even though she qualified to States, she cannot go due to injury. Now if she could specialize maybe she'd still be going.

Gymnastics is a children's sport on the womens side, there are very few WAG gymnasts competing past 18 years of age. To encourage kids to stay involved is a great thing. Elitism is great, but it isn't lucrative enough to support the coaches in the USA! Diversification is the name of the game, to keep kids in and also to keep people in jobs.

Just another take on it.....

Great point, Bog.

Last meet, I watched dd1 warming up vault. She has knee pain resulting from a crazy fall just after her lvl 6 year. Clean MRIs, but that kid can predict weather changes by the pain in her knees. Oh, and landing a tsuk hurts. That kid went down off her last warm-up and stayed there. She rolled off the mat and crawled back to the start of the run. Time to compete, though, she's up and running. Landed that tsuk on both attempts. 9.225. Still, I'm wondering what kind of parent am I to let my child (yes, she's nearly 15, but she's still a CHILD and I can/should override her choices sometimes) stay in this activity.

I'm pretty sure that if my dd1 could train as a specialist (beam/bars) and train a more reasonable number of hours (cuz she wouldn't have to be there for floor/vault), she'd stay in the sport through the rest of high school and do so without single-handedly keeping Advil in business.

If the goal of JO is to keep girls in the sport as long as possible, allowing specialists at the upper levels is definitely the way to go. Gymnastics is s a tough sport, but it's really tough on a bigger body. Not sure on the formula, but extra weight, height equals more stress on the body with each landing. If they stay in the sport long enough, all the competitors are going to suffer injuries. Even if they don't have the "big fall" they're likely to see some overuse stuff happening. Why not let the kid with shoulder trouble compete without bars or the kid with knee pain skip the vault?

 

[Billy]

Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play? I don't have a problem with gymnastics specialists, per se, but it doesn't seem fair to allow a specialist, who can spend 20 hours a week just working on bars, to compete ( and probably win) against a girl who spends that same 20 hours in training but is training in all events. She'd have to train 80 hours a week to get the same bar time that the specialist can get. Perhaps the solution is to set meets, or specific sessions within the meets, for specialists, rather than have them compete against girls who are training all-around.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play? I don't have a problem with gymnastics specialists, per se, but it doesn't seem fair to allow a specialist, who can spend 20 hours a week just working on bars, to compete ( and probably win) against a girl who spends that same 20 hours in training but is training in all events. She'd have to train 80 hours a week to get the same bar time that the specialist can get. Perhaps the solution is to set meets, or specific sessions within the meets, for specialists, rather than have them compete against girls who are training all-around.

But this goes back to what bogwoppit was saying earlier; gymnasts ALREADY don't spend equal amounts of time on each event. Some practice more than others. That's life.

Besides, your assumption that specialists would dominate the individual events is demonstrably innaccurate. Look at boys' JO. Sometimes specialists win their events. Sometimes all-arunders win those same events. Placement on individual events does not noticably skew in favor of specialists.

 

[sbl4804]

Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play?


Strange analogy. I wouldn't expect a kid who can't run to play soccer, but I wouldn't expect someone that excels as a goalie be forced to play forward. Every gymnasts has their own strengths and weaknesses, why not let them participate in what they are good at? I also would point out that this should only apply to the upper levels of gymnastics. Everyone participating should have to be able to at least perform the basics of the sport.

 

[bogwoppit]

Maybe it is my lack of "experience" that colors my opinion. But, would you expect the soccer association to change the game so a kid who can't run can still play? I don't have a problem with gymnastics specialists, per se, but it doesn't seem fair to allow a specialist, who can spend 20 hours a week just working on bars, to compete ( and probably win) against a girl who spends that same 20 hours in training but is training in all events. She'd have to train 80 hours a week to get the same bar time that the specialist can get. Perhaps the solution is to set meets, or specific sessions within the meets, for specialists, rather than have them compete against girls who are training all-around.

What I know for sure is.... my DD is injured. She goes to the gym and she trains beam and bars, whilst the other girls train vault and floor she has to do conditioning or nothing. She is in the gym 11 hours a week, she competes against girls who train 20+ hours a week. I don't see how it can be very different in other gyms. She is not going to beat anyone even on beam/bars as she still has to jump and dismount onto her injured foot. She was a very good all rounder when she was 7,8,9. Once the injuries kicked in the only things she ever placed on were beam and bars, she never gets a chance to catch up on her skills on vault and floor.

There is no level playing field in gymnastics, there never was and there will never be.

Specializing is the answer to every injured gymnasts prayer. It's not about taking anything away from the healthy AA gymnasts, they will do well 'cos they can.

 

[bogwoppit]

But, you know what the best news is??? We don't have to agree!!!

 

[Billy]

Okay, soccer was a bad analogy. But gymnastics is like no other sport, is it? How about golf? A golfer wouldn't be allowed to skip the water hazard because it's not his "specialty." He would be expected to play every hole just like everyone else.

And Bog, I completely understand what you're saying about injuries and I think we're talking about two different situations. A girl who is injured and can't compete floor or vault or whatever should certainly be allowed to compete those events that she can while she is healing. When she's better, then she can compete AA again. But, I don't think that's the same as the girl who only does floor or only does bars because she can't or won't do the rest. Women's gymnastics is a four-event sport, at least for USAG.

So, we may just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, I do hope your DD gets better soon. Tell her to "hang in there" (hehehe... bars pun intended).

 

[lannamavity]

If the expectation is for everyone to compete as an all-arounder, then it is a level playing field. It is the choice of the coach/athlete how many hours they work out. Everyone has that choice, and that should never be controlled. The playing field has to be level in competition.

The can of worms USAG is opening (well, asking each Region to open) is equal status for specialists at qualifiers amongst AA's.
Injured athletes are a separate issue. There is a difference between an injured athlete and a specialist. Injured athletes don't have a choice, specialists do. Injured athletes can use their previous AA scores to petition to Regionals, specialists can't.

We had an athlete, recovering from partially torn ligaments in her ankles, compete L10 at her first meet a few weeks ago. She had to compete one meet this season, because she was injured a year ago before Level 10 State (did two events) and didn't compete at Regionals...so she couldn't petition to Regionals without a score from this season. She did two simple tumbling passes on floor (fell on one), a handspring vault, no dimount off beam...and a really nice bar routine...and she still easily qualified for State. It wasn't fun...in fact, it was hard to watch a strong (previously scored 37.0 +) Level 10 struggle like that, but she went out there and did her job and survived. She got more out of that meet than medals. She's not a specialist just because she's hurt, she's a fighter.

That kid who is "scratched from state" is scratching four events because her coach has chosen to. There is no reason why she can't go and do an event if she is healthy enough to do one...that doesn't make her a specialist. State is her final meet and she earned the right to compete (with a qualifying AA score) if she can. No one is stopping her, and being a "specialist" has nothing to do with it.

Injured athletes can already:
#1. Petition to State/Regionals
#2. Get permanent physical limitation verification from a doctor and qualify/compete the events they can.
#3. Qualify to State/Regionals with very low minimum scores.

I do have a theory as to why the push for specialists is getting stronger...and it's not the rule for everyone, but I think it happens a lot more often than most would admit:

Some parents and coaches are afraid to say "no" to gymnasts who want to advance to the next level without being ready on one or more events. Rather than say "no" and have the gymnast threaten to quit (and ruin the coach/parent's dream), the coach allows the athlete to move to the next level unprepared, and, in the long run, the athlete gets frustrated and wants to quit anyway. Then, in a final act of desperation, they are allowed to be a specialist, only doing the events which are easiest and most enjoyable for them. So "being a specialist" is another way to "do what I want to do, or I'll quit."

So being a specialist is a big band-aid on a boo-boo caused by giving in years before. This puts "holding kids back" in a different perspective, huh?

The old adage goes: "A gymnast is only as good as their weakest event." In effect, specialists just choose not to do that event. Is that really a good direction for the sport to turn? What life lesson is that teaching?

 

[Billy]

Lannamavity- you're so much more eloquent than I am. I second what you said.

 

[AnitaV]

This is an interesting discussion. Tramp and Tumbling has a system which I always wondered if it could be used in gymnastics but the logistics seem very difficult. You compete the three events: mini double tramp (I think that is what it is called), trampoline and rod floor/tumbling. You compete a different level in each event based upon your current skill level. That is you compete the level you have skills for on each event. For example you could be a level 8 on tumbling for floor, a level 7 on trampoline and a level 6 on the double mini. Or you could compete the same level on all the events if you have the skills. Also when you go to a meet you can compete on as many or few events as desired. There is no from what I have been told stigma to competing one or all events.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

This is an interesting discussion. Tramp and Tumbling has a system which I always wondered if it could be used in gymnastics but the logistics seem very difficult. You compete the three events: mini double tramp (I think that is what it is called), trampoline and rod floor/tumbling. You compete a different level in each event based upon your current skill level. That is you compete the level you have skills for on each event. For example you could be a level 8 on tumbling for floor, a level 7 on trampoline and a level 6 on the double mini. Or you could compete the same level on all the events if you have the skills. Also when you go to a meet you can compete on as many or few events as desired. There is no from what I have been told stigma to competing one or all events.

This sounds like an excellent system to me, though I don't think the logistics would work so well in gymnastics.

 

[chabuc]

I think allowing specialists is a good thing. I think, decades ago, there were actually more specialists but then there was a concerted effort to move towards the All-Around. Nothing says we can't go back.

If there becomes too many specialists, why not have states just for specialists? Right now, with things just starting out, it makes no sense to have a state meet just for specialists, if it got popular, nothing says you couldn't break it off into a separate meet. Doesn't Texas do that with it's AAs right now? I think I heard they have so many kids that qualify to states, that states is split up. I think California is also split. "States" is really "half the state" or something like that.

 

[fruitcake]

Yes in Tramp and Tumbling you can compete different levels for each event and you don't have to do all 3. However, the meets then can be all day for a child as they may have one event in the morning and one in the late afternoon. My dd switched to TandT this year and we spent almost 8 hours at a meet where she competed 2 events. I can't imagine the headache of scheduling a meet where girls competed on 4 apparatus at different levels! As a parent, I wouldn't want to be a seveal sessions over a weekend which would happen if you could do different levels for each apparatus!
In theory, I like the idea of event specialists. I just think the implementation would be a challenge and require a lot of thinking outside of the box. Until gyms can't put together teams of all-arounders, I don't know if there is enough incentive to try it for the coaches/owners. We parents may like it for our kids but if the coaches have a supply of new girls to move to team, I'm not sure they would see the need to work out how to do event specialists. Imagine scheduling team into the gym with coaches if you have differents numbers on each apparatus--does everyone come for the entire practice? do event specialist just come for the part of practice on their event? do they pay a prorated tuition?
It is all possible, it could be done but what a can of worms!

 

[lannamavity]

This sounds like an excellent system to me, though I don't think the logistics would work so well in gymnastics.

It already exists...it's USAIGC. A club who wants event specialists and competition at random levels on differents events would be in heaven competing USAIGC.

Hmmmmm....it just occurred to me that since USAIGC competes against USAG for athletes, USAG could see this as a way to stay "ahead of the competition" in case the "rise of specialists", which will be even more apparant after the Olympics, will inspire kids to do one or two events.

It also explains why USAG isn't pushing the inclusion of specialists, but letting Regions decide, because some areas have more USAIGC clubs than others.

I still have to believe it's about the money. It always is.

LONG LIVE THE ALL-AROUND!!!!

By the way, I liked the soccer analogy, and I can add to it...everyone can't be a goalie just because they aren't good at running.

 

[gymdog]

Personally I don't see this as like some enormous threat to the integrity of gymnastics. I guess I don't take gymnastics that seriously. At all, really.

I also don't see it as having much impact at lower levels OR younger ages. Realistically, unless you have one athlete at that level, it would be difficult to train some kids on just one or two events, etc. I don't see a lot of a people doing that. You're going to have to go through compulsories anyway and as Geoff Taucer pretty well points, three of the four girls events complement each other as far as training pretty well. This is why the level system mainly works from my perspective, at least for a long time. Team competitions don't mean a whole lot in USAG and I don't see that changing (if anything I mildly see it trending away from that), and so event specializing as strategy just doesn't really fit in. In all but pretty limited circumstances, you're paying a lot of money and spending a significant amount of time at the gym anyway, which many younger girls don't mind. You might as well train all the events. I see this as being mainly attractive to high schoolers who would quit anyway and want to cut down hours because of nagging pain (not any specific injury at a specific time), etc and I don't really have a problem with that myself. Yeah yeah there are other opportunities but not to compete at the level of USAG on any event and get exposure to NCAA coaches. Maybe there are some states with enormous amounts of 16+ optionals, but my own state has a pretty limited amount. And I doubt 10 year old level 8s are going to start to just train beam. It doesn't make sense. Most people are going to treat this fairly rationally, and if they don't, switch to a gym that does. Also, can specialists move up a level somehow? This is unclear to me. If not, then there's very limited value to this and I highly doubt anyone would do it unless they are already an older 9 or 10, or maybe a much older 8 (like a senior in high school) who is not ever going to be a 9 or 10 and not strong enough on most events to qualify for regionals in the AA, but wants a chance to compete in a meet like that their last year or something.

Personally, I started competing when I was 11/12, and although I had some promise, I just didn't move up fast enough and gym problems around a critical period in high school kind of killed a lot. I ended up at the point where I could have walked onto some teams, but then the specific situation didn't really work out, hard to go into. Anyway, if I could have concentrated on 2 or 3 events, it would have really helped me and possibly given me the chance to get to a higher level on those with the limited time I had. I know a lot of people have a different situation but not everyone starts when they are 7 and not everything works out perfectly so you can just try harder and overcome weaknesses on the same playing field. It's getting harder and harder to start later by my observations and I think this is a way to reverse that trend and give people some options. I think it is really depressing to look at my gym's level 8 group, they are mostly 9-12 whereas mine had many more 14-16. It is like they have decided to just kind of push the older girls into the rec leagues or high school gym around here, you'll never get anywhere in that time so no point worrying about it. I have seen a few girls stay in level 8 until their senior year for various reasons but because our regionals takes very few girls by placement rather than AA score, they are competing with the 15 year olds who will be 9s the next year in some cases for a couple spots at regionals and usually are just not as strong, but might have a chance at one event like beam which generally requires less strength and with more focused training on that, might be able to reach that higher level to be competitive. I find the opposition this on the grounds that is compromising the entire sport and weak and an easy way out, etc, very bizarre. I don't know any gyms that competed USAIGC around where I grew up so while it may be an option for clubs, it isn't for all athletes and it's not like people are going to move to do USAIGC.

 

[lannamavity]

So you "don't take gymnastics seriously?" ...not sure I get your point. It sort of sounds like this discussion is "below you." Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Team competition is very important in a lot of states. Some clubs depend on their success at State Meets to attract athletes to their gym. That's why a lot of parents pick some gyms over others. I guess if there is an area where the gymnastics is of a very low level, and there are very few gyms competing for athletes, this wouldn't be an issue.

The beauty of a team is, if an athlete isn't as successful on, say floor, as opposed to bars, they can contribute to their team's score on bars. That way, instead of quitting an event/events, they are just contributing on their best event/events for the team. What happened to your helping the "team?"

I don't see how the "similarity" of women's events makes specializing such a natural step. So a guy skips pommels and goes straight to pbars...why is that so much more complicated than a girl skipping vault and going to beam?

One thing which hasn't been mentioned is that, in the compulsory levels, bars is not the only event that kids have trouble with (once they have a kip)...it's fear on beam...back walkovers, back handsprings etc. So what is to stop a kid who has fear on beam from becoming a "specialist" on every other event for Level 8? If they don't care about State Meet, then how about Level 7, or 6? That not a trend toward specialization, it is a trend toward recreational gymnastics.

I have seen a lot of "older starters" in the sport who go on to compete optionals, quite well, actually. Do they become level 10's? Not often...but they have the option if they get the skills. You can't blame gymnastics because you chose to start it at a later age. Even Sacramone started gymnastics late...and she got her butt up on bars...and sucked... and still earned herself a spot on the Worlds Team. Prime example.


I again pose the question: Who decides who gets to specialize? Has anyone had this situation? To be honest, I've coached in four states and have never seen a girl who was a true "specialist". Is there anyone out there who actually does this or has seen a club do it?

 

[chabuc]

So you "don't take gymnastics seriously?" ...not sure I get your point. It sort of sounds like this discussion is "below you." Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

You're reading it wrong.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Even with specialist allowed, I don't think there would be too many. I believe that vast, vast majority of gymnasts would continue to compete all around. There are many "easier" gymsports available but I don't think girls are retiring into them, in fact I think they are being pushed into them due to the pressure's in WAG. Many can't handle the training hours required or simply cant cope with the difficulty level. WAG is losing many gymnasts to these gymsports.