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Kaz vs Tsuk Full?

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Brandon

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What are the differences and reasons for doing each? Is one better than the other in the long run?

Right now I'm training a full twisting tsuk but I'm not entirely sure if its a kaz or not. I round off left and twist left which makes me think it's a kaz, but Im not twisting off the table, I'm finishing the half on before initiating the twist, which makes me think tsuk full.

 
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dunno

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left round off on to left twist off is Kaz. why? cause a left round off is a right twist. so then, if you left round off on and right twist off you have a tsuk full. :)

btw, the video is so small i can't see anything. sorry about that. :)
 

krc

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It's a little hard to see in the video - but it looks left/left which would make it a Kaz. A Tsuk full would be left ro/right twist. The Kaz is preferred because it is easier to add more twisting down the line.(IMHO) This video shows some really nice progressions for learning the kasamatsu:
 

iwannacoach

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Looks like a pretty good breakdown of the element. It must work pretty good because they got me beat by better than 45 years. I guess I'll have to rethink my progressions and start over.:D

It's nice to see you're teaching them to plaster their legs together on the pre-flight. I bet you hear a lot of "aw gee, it really hard for them to keep that tight".... during their pre-flight. Funny how doing the difficult things makes a skill so much easier.;)
 
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krc

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Unfortunately, I can't claim the kids as my own - the vid is from Lee Woolls in the UK. I have had success using these drills however. Emphasising the 1/4 off keeps them from ducking too early on the front and loosing height. Plus, it's much easier to transition into a rudi-out for a Kas 1/1. Good call on the legs - probably the most overlooked error with 1/2 on vaults!
 

iwannacoach

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Good call on the legs - probably the most overlooked error with 1/2 on vaults!
Doing it the hard way is the key to doing it the easy way. I can't believe the number of vaults that kids throw with spread legs...... geez, it must be easier to make that turn crisp and tight with loose legs that flail all over the place.
 
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CalEliteCoach

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What are the differences and reasons for doing each? Is one better than the other in the long run?

Right now I'm training a full twisting tsuk but I'm not entirely sure if its a kaz or not. I round off left and twist left which makes me think it's a kaz, but Im not twisting off the table, I'm finishing the half on before initiating the twist, which makes me think tsuk full.

A Tsuk 1/1 is a 1/4 on, 1/4 in to a back with a 1/1. A Kaz is a 1/4 on, 1/4 out to front with a 1/2 turn. If you taught right round off right twist, this should be natural. Think of a Tsuk as a cartwheel that turns into backward roll. Think of a Kaz as a cartwheel that turns out to a forward roll. It teach both Tsuk and Kaz to my new optionals. Start with a 1/4 on to the table and land sideways on stacked mats.
 

JBS

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It teach both Tsuk and Kaz to my new optionals. Start with a 1/4 on to the table and land sideways on stacked mats.
You teach both to everyone? Not sure I really understand this...can you explain better please?
 

dunno

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me neither. it's one or the other. :)
 

Brandon

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A Tsuk 1/1 is a 1/4 on, 1/4 in to a back with a 1/1. A Kaz is a 1/4 on, 1/4 out to front with a 1/2 turn. If you taught right round off right twist, this should be natural. Think of a Tsuk as a cartwheel that turns into backward roll. Think of a Kaz as a cartwheel that turns out to a forward roll. It teach both Tsuk and Kaz to my new optionals. Start with a 1/4 on to the table and land sideways on stacked mats.
This is where my confusion is. Most people are saying left + left = kaz. But I'm not doing a 1/4 on 3/4 off. It's 1/4 on, another 1/4 to finish the round off action completely (I'm facing the runway in the air like I would for a regular tsuk) then back full. BUT I put my left hand down first on the round off going on and I twist left as well. I'm twisting very late which is why it's hard for to tell the difference. Sorry about the video by the way, it was recorded on a phone.
 

JBS

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Yes...I would say you are doing a Kaz incorrectly. I have taught them late like that initially...but not for long. You are actually reversing twist direction in mid air...this means that you are basically limiting yourself by waiting.
 

krc

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Brandon, Kas vs Tsuk 1/1 has to do with the direction of the twist - not the timing. Your vault looks like a Tsuk 1/1 due to the late twist, but it is a Kas just a very late one.
 

CalEliteCoach

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If you learned a right round off and a right twist this shouldn't be hard to figure out. I understand the whole right round off is a left twist concept. If you taught a right round off and left twist, this means no Kaz for you. Our optionals training Tsuks all learn with the same set up. A porta-pit stacked to vault table height. We start with a 1/4 on to a sideways finish. A right cartwheel gymnast would put their right hand on the table first and 1/4 turn on to the left hand then block to a stand on the porta-pit. Like a forward to side cartwheel. When the concept is learned we add a 1/4 turn in. So 1/4 on, 1/4 to face the vault table. Then to their back and then they are ready to flip a Tsuk. We also have them do 1/4 on, 1/4 turn facing out to face away from the table. Soon we add a forward roll. Like a 1/4, 1/4 front like a Kaz drill. We also have them train a brani ballot on tramp to work the second half of the Kaz.
 

iwannacoach

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If you learned a right round off and a right twist this shouldn't be hard to figure out. I understand the whole right round off is a left twist concept. If you taught a right round off and left twist, this means no Kaz for you. Our optionals training Tsuks all learn with the same set up. A porta-pit stacked to vault table height. We start with a 1/4 on to a sideways finish. A right cartwheel gymnast would put their right hand on the table first and 1/4 turn on to the left hand then block to a stand on the porta-pit. Like a forward to side cartwheel. When the concept is learned we add a 1/4 turn in. So 1/4 on, 1/4 to face the vault table. Then to their back and then they are ready to flip a Tsuk. We also have them do 1/4 on, 1/4 turn facing out to face away from the table. Soon we add a forward roll. Like a 1/4, 1/4 front like a Kaz drill. We also have them train a brani ballot on tramp to work the second half of the Kaz.
I've pretty much dabbled with as many vaults reasonable for all the kids during the first 3-4 weeks of their off season training, and then begin to narrow it down to their two best vaults. So I my have a kid working a tsuk variation and a handspring front. It seems like you could get them a little too busy (mentally) by having them turnone way for a true tsuk and another for a kaz.

So is it a totally parallel approach with both vault progressions taking place in the same vault session. If that's the case is there a point in their training when you concentrate on one and let the other "soak" until the next training cycle. Last of all, do the kids get confused if you do both in the same session, week, or month?
 

dunno

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If you learned a right round off and a right twist this shouldn't be hard to figure out. I understand the whole right round off is a left twist concept. If you taught a right round off and left twist, this means no Kaz for you. Our optionals training Tsuks all learn with the same set up. A porta-pit stacked to vault table height. We start with a 1/4 on to a sideways finish. A right cartwheel gymnast would put their right hand on the table first and 1/4 turn on to the left hand then block to a stand on the porta-pit. Like a forward to side cartwheel. When the concept is learned we add a 1/4 turn in. So 1/4 on, 1/4 to face the vault table. Then to their back and then they are ready to flip a Tsuk. We also have them do 1/4 on, 1/4 turn facing out to face away from the table. Soon we add a forward roll. Like a 1/4, 1/4 front like a Kaz drill. We also have them train a brani ballot on tramp to work the second half of the Kaz.

barani ball out
. not being a spelling nazi. just want it right so that younger coaches know what your talking about. and they might ask. :)
 

dunno

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I've pretty much dabbled with as many vaults reasonable for all the kids during the first 3-4 weeks of their off season training, and then begin to narrow it down to their two best vaults. So I my have a kid working a tsuk variation and a handspring front. It seems like you could get them a little too busy (mentally) by having them turnone way for a true tsuk and another for a kaz.

So is it a totally parallel approach with both vault progressions taking place in the same vault session. If that's the case is there a point in their training when you concentrate on one and let the other "soak" until the next training cycle. Last of all, do the kids get confused if you do both in the same session, week, or month?
that's a good point. since we teach both to both boys and girls, and the same concept applies to round off entry vaults, we go with the only way they do it.

if they round off left and left twist backwards they learn Kaz. if they left round off (which is a right twist) and they twist right backwards they learn 'true' tsuk full.
 

iwannacoach

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that's a good point. since we teach both to both boys and girls, and the same concept applies to round off entry vaults, we go with the only way they do it.

if they round off left and left twist backwards they learn Kaz. if they left round off (which is a right twist) and they twist right backwards they learn 'true' tsuk full.
I was talking about the early drill stage where he has the kids 1/4-1/4 in and then has them 1/4-1/4 out, and was curious about anyone seeing kids continuing with both to the point of working the complete vault into a mat over pit landing.

I've seen some similar-similar skills problems with two that begin kinda the same and then continue into two different skills. Sometimes the muscle memory kicks in and the kid incorporate elements of both skills in the same attempt, and you end up watching a cluster vault.

Like the time I was teaching, way long ago, a kid to do giants and double back dismounts during the same training span. I ended up watching in horror as the kid did a little of both as she was trying her dismount. I hate when a kid does a d-back to their shoulder blades onto the bar. I figure I got lucky that day as things didn't go entirely south, and her only injuries were the bruises she got from hitting the bar.

I'll never train those two skills in the same span again.
 

JBS

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If you learned a right round off and a right twist this shouldn't be hard to figure out. I understand the whole right round off is a left twist concept. If you taught a right round off and left twist, this means no Kaz for you. Our optionals training Tsuks all learn with the same set up. A porta-pit stacked to vault table height. We start with a 1/4 on to a sideways finish. A right cartwheel gymnast would put their right hand on the table first and 1/4 turn on to the left hand then block to a stand on the porta-pit. Like a forward to side cartwheel. When the concept is learned we add a 1/4 turn in. So 1/4 on, 1/4 to face the vault table. Then to their back and then they are ready to flip a Tsuk. We also have them do 1/4 on, 1/4 turn facing out to face away from the table. Soon we add a forward roll. Like a 1/4, 1/4 front like a Kaz drill. We also have them train a brani ballot on tramp to work the second half of the Kaz.
I can see the concept of trying to teach a Tsuk full kid a Kaz...but not the other way around. For our Tsuk full kids we do 1/4 on...then basically a 1/2 off to stand...then it's the same as a Kaz from there...a cruised 3/4 out. I don't really think of the Kaz as a barani ball out...we do those on tramp all the time as some of the kids operate more this way...I think of it more as the continuation of a cruise turn on trampoline. Not sure if this makes any sense...but that's what we have been doing.


Since I am so into the cruise style twisting (pushing the twist around with the opposite shoulder)...we also do lot's of cody work and twisting cody work. You'll see that she does the right twist by punching the left arm/shoulder...

 
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