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kids try new skills on their own - should I forbid it? And weird progressions in my L6 girls...

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pumpkinpie

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As you might know already, I am coaching some L6 girls at the moment.

They started Layouts already and we worked on them today. Sometimes they do well, but often it looks much more like a whip.

Today I went over the body shape for layouts once again and showed them some drills. The girls usually stretch or do some easy stuff when they are waiting for their turn.

But today, 4 of the 6 girls were doing Round-Off-Back Handspring-Fulls on floor! Ok, the fulls were not really nice; bent legs and not very high, but still, they landed it.
I mean, how is this even possible if they can't do a layout yet? I asked them and they said they worked on them at open gym on tumbl trak and then just tried them on floor. "Adam, they are sooo much easier than layouts, can't we do twists instead".

Well, that shocked me. I mean, I can do doubles but I have never tried any twisting before I could do a layout! Maybe I could have also thrown a full before a layout if I tried?

I did some research on the internet and on this forum now and this is what I found out:
Often, a good layout is more difficult than a full. Once you have a good layout and are comfortable with twisting on the trampoline, it's not that hard. The hard part is actually not the twisting, but to remain in a straight position while doing so. A crooked full is actually easier than a straight layout.
Do you agree with that?

And should I forbid the kids to do fulls until they can do layouts? Will it hinder the process? Or should I let them try it out?
Coaches, how do you normally teach Layouts and Twisting?
 
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Gymnastisism

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I think you should either ban them from doing them or teach them the proper way to do them. Don't allow them to twist and convince their team mates to try it too (who may not be ready) because they're at risk of blowing a knee out or bailing mid air. Maybe teach them some drills or only allow them to do them into the pit?
 

Aussie_coach

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That shows a big problem at your gym. You mean to say that these kids are level 6's and they have never learned full sin class but they are coming to open gym at your gym and chucking these skills and no one is stopping them??? Seriously? How well is open gym supervised? We don't have open gyms and it is very rare in Australia, I have never seen a gym who offers it and it is for this very reason.

You should be banning gymnasts from trying skills which they have never been taught before, but that does not mean they won't do it.

I don't allow the kids to work dulls until they at least have a good high and straight layout on trampoline. If they get the full while their layouts are still poor then it is going to be very hard to undo all the bad work. I will then have them working full drills and full son tramp but they won't go on floor until they have a solid layout on floor.
 
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pumpkinpie

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That shows a big problem at your gym. You mean to say that these kids are level 6's and they have never learned full sin class but they are coming to open gym at your gym and chucking these skills and no one is stopping them??? Seriously? How well is open gym supervised? We don't have open gyms and it is very rare in Australia, I have never seen a gym who offers it and it is for this very reason.

You should be banning gymnasts from trying skills which they have never been taught before, but that does not mean they won't do it.

I don't allow the kids to work dulls until they at least have a good high and straight layout on trampoline. If they get the full while their layouts are still poor then it is going to be very hard to undo all the bad work. I will then have them working full drills and full son tramp but they won't go on floor until they have a solid layout on floor.
Yes you are right! Although open gym is supervised, it's usually any coaches and they don't know what the kids are capable of!

I have actually never thaught anyone fulls from the scratch. I attach great importance to conditioning, body-shapes etc, as it will make skills easier and less injury-prone. I will have a talk with the girls and explain it to them...they are really nice and I am sure they will understand.

So I have actually been able to do triples, but can now just do doubles. But I really know the technique of twisting But I barely remember how I learned it.
I guess after I could do a good layout - which took about 4 months - I started twisting on the tramp. I got it quite quickly after about 1 month. Then I went to air track and tried it out. I did this for about 3 months and then I took it on floor. So about 5-6 months for a full on floor for the average gymnast?
Can I apply this to teaching them?

Ahhh and one more thing - Do you also think it is easier to flip out of a BH than a RO?

Thanks for your input!
 
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pumpkinpie

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That shows a big problem at your gym. You mean to say that these kids are level 6's and they have never learned full sin class but they are coming to open gym at your gym and chucking these skills and no one is stopping them??? Seriously? How well is open gym supervised? We don't have open gyms and it is very rare in Australia, I have never seen a gym who offers it and it is for this very reason.

You should be banning gymnasts from trying skills which they have never been taught before, but that does not mean they won't do it.

I don't allow the kids to work dulls until they at least have a good high and straight layout on trampoline. If they get the full while their layouts are still poor then it is going to be very hard to undo all the bad work. I will then have them working full drills and full son tramp but they won't go on floor until they have a solid layout on floor.
Yes you are right! Although open gym is supervised, it's usually any coaches and they don't know what the kids are capable of!

I have actually never thaught anyone fulls from the scratch. I attach great importance to conditioning, body-shapes etc, as it will make skills easier and less injury-prone. I will have a talk with the girls and explain it to them...they are really nice and I am sure they will understand.

So I have actually been able to do triples, but can now just do doubles. But I really know the technique of twisting But I barely remember how I learned it.
I guess after I could do a good layout - which took about 4 months - I started twisting on the tramp. I got it quite quickly after about 1 month. Then I went to air track and tried it out. I did this for about 3 months and then I took it on floor. So about 5-6 months for a full on floor for the average gymnast?
Can I apply this to teaching them?

Ahhh and one more thing - Do you also think it is easier to flip out of a BH than a RO?

Thanks for your input!
 

iwannacoach

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Their "throw and go" fulls are probably early twist with nearly no set (if any) and will get worse over time until they turn into humpty dumpty.

Sure....it's possible to make a full from weak tumbling and little set. Twisting shortens the salto radius on two planes instead of the single plane seen in a layout. A full tilts sideways and that contrubutes to the dish shape used for the layout. That's why you have to teach them with a forward inclination when starting the punch, and beg them to get rid of the upper back arch during their set..... because a powerful tumbler will over salto a full if they do it with a whip set. So even if they learn and keep the frankentwists they've taught themselves, they'll be back to square one (minus some) when they want more than a full.
 

gymjunkie

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I would ban the fulls until they have good layouts!
 

Gymsanity

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As you might know already, I am coaching some L6 girls at the moment.

They started Layouts already and we worked on them today. Sometimes they do well, but often it looks much more like a whip.

Today I went over the body shape for layouts once again and showed them some drills. The girls usually stretch or do some easy stuff when they are waiting for their turn.

But today, 4 of the 6 girls were doing Round-Off-Back Handspring-Fulls on floor! Ok, the fulls were not really nice; bent legs and not very high, but still, they landed it.
I mean, how is this even possible if they can't do a layout yet? I asked them and they said they worked on them at open gym on tumbl trak and then just tried them on floor. "Adam, they are sooo much easier than layouts, can't we do twists instead".

Well, that shocked me. I mean, I can do doubles but I have never tried any twisting before I could do a layout! Maybe I could have also thrown a full before a layout if I tried?

I did some research on the internet and on this forum now and this is what I found out:
Often, a good layout is more difficult than a full. Once you have a good layout and are comfortable with twisting on the trampoline, it's not that hard. The hard part is actually not the twisting, but to remain in a straight position while doing so. A crooked full is actually easier than a straight layout.
Do you agree with that?

And should I forbid the kids to do fulls until they can do layouts? Will it hinder the process? Or should I let them try it out?
Coaches, how do you normally teach Layouts and Twisting?
'They started Layouts already and we worked on them today. Sometimes they do well, but often it looks much more like a whip.'
That's a good thing in my opinion. I always teach whips before layouts, as they teach the girls how to truly rotate. Without understanding that, you will never have a truly good layout. You can do pikes and tucks without knowing, as the momentum of the knees or toes coming up and pulling over will still allow them to make it, but with hollow layouts they need to understand and feel what truly makes them rotate. I also teach a whip set for double backs, so I find them valuable for many reasons.
'how is this even possible if they can't do a layout yet?'
Not being laid out shortens their radius which increases their rotation, coupled with twisting which again increases the rotation, does make it easier, albeit not prettier! ;)
'And should I forbid the kids to do fulls until they can do layouts? Will it hinder the process? Or should I let them try it out?'
I say go for it if they are safe. I differ from most coaches philosophy who believe that 'you must teach everything perfectly or not at all.' My philosophy is, 'you can't fix what you ain't got' ;) I have a group of 7-9 year olds that all do fulls. Do they look great, are they technically correct? No, but they are learning to twist, flip, have courage, and most importantly they are having fun. The shapes and technique will come with time (and lots of drills), so we continue to have fun as they get better everyday. Hope it helps.
 
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