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Lower then expected L3 Beam score.

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Tim_Dad

Member
Nov 3, 2008
414
Region IV (Missouri)
My Nastia had her 1st spring meet today what went "OK". She was having an off day, and most of her scores were about .25 lower then what's typical.

However, her beam score is a mystery to us. She scored an 8.10, which is lower then even some gymnasts that fell off the beam. Can someone watch her video and point out her critical mistakes for us?! We're really very confused. Nastia of course was shaken emotionally when she saw this score posted. Her coach asked if it was accurate, and the judge said yes. So we just had to accept it.

Thanks for watching. I look forward to reading any helpful comments.

Tim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzk4ErIsXTwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzk4ErIsXT

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzk4ErIsXTw[/youtube]
 
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MdGymMom01

Active Member
Mar 5, 2008
2,236
North America
Hi Tim_Dad. I am not a coach--just a parent, but from what I saw from the video were just little things that seemed to add up. Like slightly bent legs. You can see that her knees throughout the routine are not as "locked out" as they could be to produce a nice long uninterupted line. Her handstand...her bottom leg was slightly bent. She moved a little slowly and tentatively throughout parts of the routine--maybe they took points off for that. There was a balance check here and there but overall, it looked pretty good. I wouldn't worry too much about the score--sometimes gymnasts just have an off day. Just have her keep practicing being "tight" throughout the routine and that score should really come up. Just my opinion, from a parent's POV.
 

gymdog

Well-Known Member
Coach
Former Gymnast
Proud Relative
Jul 5, 2007
5,121
L3 beam scores tend to be high in general because it's a short routine - there's not a lot to deduct from.

That said even if I go through and try to be harsh on deductions, I get around: .2-.3 on each skill, but I didn't really consider amplitude as much. The angle on the split leap could have been killer but we don't compete L3 so I don't know exactly what the text calls for there - I just try to get it as close to 180 as possible. I also don't know exactly what the text calls for on the waltz step, but sometimes there is a specific degree of something or weight transfer they are looking for - like I said, I don't know the specifics, but it could be something that's hard to see. Another I notice is that the "lock" position needs to be on releve (high toe) with feet closer together. This is a constant problem I have with beginning-intermediate gymnasts. They just have a lot more to focus on and forget that detail.

Either way she's right in line with my L3s (we don't compete) who will probably compete next year as 4s. They usually look less polished and are doing well to get the full routine down with no falls. They improve a lot after having done the skills for awhile and start looking a lot less like they're trying to reason through them. Her form isn't bad for L3 but there's some form deductions.

Every meet is different and the scoring can vary. I would tell her not to put much stock in the scores. It is more important to have a personal goal for the actual gymnastics (i.e. make both handstands). The scores are just a reflection of one performance. Often the same routine will get different scores in different meets. I watched an entire session of L4 bar routines where the judges were killing the cast out of the free hip and the dismount - some routines looked very similar to ones that scored 4-6 tenths higher. It usually takes me a couple of flights to pick up on how judges and judging and then I can start predicting the scores they're going to throw pretty accurately. The only thing that matters is consistency and I have never sat with USAG judges that I found to be anything other than ruthlessly consistent. If they want to hit one thing, it doesn't really matter, as long as they hit it across the board.

The only way most judges will review a score in a USAG sanctioned meet is if they get a score inquiry (which needs to be filed through the meet director). If the coach just asked, that is kind of something that's frowned upon by some judges and not likely to get an answer.
 

Blackie6

Active Member
Proud Parent
Mar 1, 2007
1,284
NJ
Country
USA
Tim Dad,

Not a judge, just the mom of a beam-challenged daughter (LOL),,,looks like she has just some bent knees, especially in the begining. And, that handstand, to get max points, needs to be a handstand. I would not worry about it all yet, she's just learning and all these things will straightenten themselves out soon in no time. Just needs a little touch up is all. It will come when she feels more comfortable up there. I thought she did AWESOME!
 

ginnymac

Parent/Coach
Coach
Former Gymnast
Proud Parent
Jun 26, 2008
386
Hi, after watching the video, I'd say that she was "tenth-ed to death" as we call it in our gym.:eek: Sometimes you get judges who are more particular about how the skills are done. I have often seen this at the lower levels, especially when you occasionally get a judge who doesn't often score at that level (particularly level 3).

Good thing is that the judge must have been hard on everyone since your team came in first!

Try to have your dd focus on her performance. That she can control. She can't control how a judge scores her!! Hopefully she had fun at the meet and can learn from this.

Sometimes after the kids get a score like this, it makes them realize that all the "little things" are actually very important to their overall result!!:)
 

gymdog

Well-Known Member
Coach
Former Gymnast
Proud Relative
Jul 5, 2007
5,121
And, that handstand, to get max points, needs to be a handstand.

Actually I'm pretty sure in L3 the text says 3/4 handstand or something like that (again I'm no slave to the L3 text). I don't think even L4 is expected to hold at vertical (L5, yes, and the cross HS in the first part of the L6 dismount). It's just easier to teach it as a HS. I mean I don't mind seeing a 3/4 HS kick the first time they're doing on high beam, but it's actually better for them to kick all the way up and have more time and sight of the beam coming down if they don't want to fall off sideways. She's pretty close to vertical anyway though, just not holding...which is right in line with my expectations for a 3.

She really is very cute and has good movement on the beam for a 3, they just probably just hit amplitude more than most 3 judges and took the max form/rhythm deductions (which is unusual in L3 scoring from what I've seen - tenthed to death as the poster above mentioned). But her mount in particular has much better swing usually than I see out of that level, a lot of times the feet are barely getting on. I love that L3 has a swing to push up position, I wish it was the same in L4.
 
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flippersmom

Guest
We had a meet yesterday also. 2 meets competed at the same time. Vault scores were much lower on one side, the other side we much higher. We had the regional technical chairperson on our side. She is much more about technique, so our scores were lower.

But there were bent knees. Don't know the L3 scale, it does not look like it is held too long before she leg starts to come down (isn't L4 2 seconds?). They could have taken overall deductions also. She needs to be sharper in hitting finishing positions like after the handstand (which does need a straight leg and pointed toes).

You never know what the judge is looking for and what they see. We have learned to live with that. There is not much you can do, but work hard and hope they don't judge the next meet!
 

skfleming255

Member
Jul 29, 2007
169
I am by no means a judge, but I did see a few things I would tryy to fix.

The things I saw was legs bent on most everything. They are required to hold their arabesque for 2 seconds. She only held hers for one. In the releve position after the 3 running steps, they need to hold it for two seconds and after the turn and she didn't hold it.

Honestly, you never know what each judge is looking for. There would be kids at meets we went to who fell off the beam, but would still score better than others who didn't, as well. It's frustrating, I know.
 
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gymnut1

Guest
I'm not a judge but a parent and coach. My first question would be where did she sit in the beam scores for the whole team/meet. If it was around the same sort of place as usual then forget the score. If it was significantly different then ask her coach to go through the video with you and explain where they think the deductions came.

I looked in the handbook and these are the deductions that could possibly be taken from this routine from my limited experience if you want to try and break it down yourself.

Time limit 30 seconds - hands on to hands off on your vid 35 sec - 0.1
Mount - lack of extension in front support - 0.1
bent knees when sitting astride beam - 0.1
bent knees in v sit -0.1
bent knees in swing 0.1
lack of tightness in body / knees in push up position 0.1
small wobble in crouch 0.1
both knees not tight enough in arabesque 0.2
arabesque not held still for long enough 0.1
knees and feet in handstand 0.3 (I think she did join feet though just)
knees and feet in split jump 0.3 (I think she did make 30 degrees though just)
feet not close enough on landing split jump 0.1
handstand not quite vertical 0.1 (video angle might be deceptive though)
body and legs/toes not tight on dismount 0.1

I think that would give you 8.1. Gosh they took them all didn't they!

Nearly all her deductions are for bent knees which is great because she can sort those out easily! Alot of children don't know how straight knees really feel. Can she see them in the video? I would get her to sit in v sit and home with straight knees and tell her to try and remember the feeling. Video it and show her how great it looks with straight legs. You could do the same with arabesque and front support too. Let the coaches sort the handstands LOL!

My dd is a scruffy muffin and people who fall often score higher than her because form deductions over the whole routine on beam or bars soon outweigh a fall!

She is doing great I'm sure the next meet will be a happier one - Good Luck!
 

gymkat

Active Member
Former Gymnast
Judge
Jun 24, 2008
691
On L3 beam, you just need to get your feet together on the HS. One thing that stuck out to me right away was her dismount-- she was in a pretty nice handstand, almost vertical, and then as soon as she starts to come down, she drops into a huge pike. The bent knees can/will also incur deductions on just about every skill. Also, she might have had rhythm and dynamics deductions because she seemed tentative up there, in addition to going overtime (an indication that they're moving too slowly).
 

gymkat

Active Member
Former Gymnast
Judge
Jun 24, 2008
691
Since it looks like she has a stopwatch in her hand, I'd guess she's saying something to the effect of being overtime or being okay on the time.
 
T

TeamDad

Guest
Thanks gymkat. Yes, she must be the timekeeper....big duhhhh....As I look at it again, she must be saying 'on time' or 'over time'.
 
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