WAG NY Times article about abuse at Everest

[SMH]

Oh my. Bunch of gymnast posting their support for Han and Everest on instagram. Search #evereststrong

Emily schild
Haley Bryant

All of the singular #evereststrong comments on these posts are really disheartening. Either they flat out don’t believe the accusations or they are so focused on their own interests they can’t look past them.

 

[vagymmomma]

I am not personally familiar with the Everest situation, but I have read on several boards that the NY Times article ignored certain facts that were presented that rebutted some of the information presented (e.g., witness not present when they say events occurred). I have also read in multiple places that Ashton was kicked out of Everest for underage drinking and bullying younger children. How can everyone be so sure that the gymnasts saying they were abused are telling the truth, but the gymnasts are lying if they say the abuse claims are false? Maybe Ashton had a bone to pick with the coaches? I have no idea, but we need to hope a FAIR and thorough investigation is done (following up with both sides). These accusations can destroy people’s lives. If they are guilty, they deserve it. But I am worried there is now a risk of the opposite - the public being too quick to condemn. My real concern is the reaction to gymnasts like Schild defending her coach. People act like there has to be something wrong with her. Maybe she has had a good experience and just wants to share it.

 

[AlijahsMom]

I am not personally familiar with the Everest situation, but I have read on several boards that the NY Times article ignored certain facts that were presented that rebutted some of the information presented (e.g., witness not present when they say events occurred). I have also read in multiple places that Ashton was kicked out of Everest for underage drinking and bullying younger children. How can everyone be so sure that the gymnasts saying they were abused are telling the truth, but the gymnasts are lying if they say the abuse claims are false? Maybe Ashton had a bone to pick with the coaches? I have no idea, but we need to hope a FAIR and thorough investigation is done (following up with both sides). These accusations can destroy people’s lives. If they are guilty, they deserve it. But I am worried there is now a risk of the opposite - the public being too quick to condemn. My real concern is the reaction to gymnasts like Schild defending her coach. People act like there has to be something wrong with her. Maybe she has had a good experience and just wants to share it.

The issue is that it is victim shaming. She doesn’t know whether or not what was said is false or not, but her post is essentially calling those who came out liars. She’s not saying hey, I support my coach or hey, I’ve only had a good experience.

The issue with victim shaming is it makes future victims feel like having their voice heard isn’t worth it because they’ll just be shamed.

I am not an Ashton fan, but, just because she left because of drinking and bullying does not mean it’s not possible she was a victim of abuse. It could even possibly be the reason for the drinking and bullying if it is true.

 

[Seeker]

The issue is that it is victim shaming. She doesn’t know whether or not what was said is false or not, but her post is essentially calling those who came out liars. She’s not saying hey, I support my coach or hey, I’ve only had a good experience.

The issue with victim shaming is it makes future victims feel like having their voice heard isn’t worth it because they’ll just be shamed.

I am not an Ashton fan, but, just because she left because of drinking and bullying does not mean it’s not possible she was a victim of abuse. It could even possibly be the reason for the drinking and bullying if it is true.

How do you know what she knows? Maybe she *does* know it’s false and more info will be released soon?

Of course, anything is possible and I think that’s the point here — until more facts are released, people need to hold their judgment.

 

[Flippin'A]

How do you know what she knows? Maybe she *does* know it’s false and more info will be released soon?

Of course, anything is possible and I think that’s the point here — until more facts are released, people need to hold their judgment.

She can't know that the claims of the victims are false. It's impossible to definitively know that someone else's story of abuse is a lie even if you know all the people involved and were around often. We see this over and over again from people close to these situations who don't think it's possible that something was going on that they weren't aware of. How many people who knew Nassar and worked with him for years called Jamie Dantzscher a liar? I'm sorry, but if we all just sit back and say nothing as this happens then we'll end up right back where we started with everyone too afraid to come forward. I'm not saying we should all go yell at the Everest gymnasts or even Han himself, but I think a word of support for those who say they were victims is necessary.

Ashton could have done some horrible things to get her kicked out of her gym, and she could also be a victim of abuse, both things could be true. It's actually very common for someone abused to lash out at others, so I have no trouble believing it at all. And I might buy the "sour grapes" theory if it was only Ashton who had come forward, but what possible motivation could the others in the article have for speaking up after all this time? No one wants this kind of attention.

 

[John]

It is kind of crazy that anyone can think they know what has happened. To say the victims are lying is to shame the victims and to condemn the coach could ruin his or her life. The problem is whatever side you take you are causing harm and pretending you know the truth. I agree with @Flippin'A that to stand in support for the victim or the coach is appropriate as long as it is done in a positive way. To shame or assign guilt to either side before the incident is investigated is wrong.

 

[my4buffaloes]

No one really knows what happened until an investigation takes place. Hopefully there will be a fair one - articles that are very 1-sided don't help. Ashton left on bad terms and could easily be on a witch-hunt. Even the best of gyms isn't a fit for everyone - people's experiences will always be different.

I for one am tired of the person accused being automatically black-balled, fired, shunned, judged, etc so quickly with very little investigation. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? America seems to have forgotten this - in many areas, not just gymnastics. Again, hopefully things will be investigated on both sides fairly and that the truth comes out. In the meantime, there is nothing wrong with supporting the accused. One of my first lessons learned as a parent was that there are at least 2 sides to every story.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

There are so many details that most won’t know... there may be a former athlete under investigation them self... are we going to assume guilty first with them too? Just a hypothetical... maybe. Maybe? Ask yourself the question?

 

[Flippin'A]

There are so many details that most won’t know... there may be a former athlete under investigation them self... are we going to assume guilty first with them too? Just a hypothetical... maybe. Maybe? Ask yourself the question?

Many have already acknowledged that Ashton is also facing a hearing for her own bullying so you can drop the passive aggressive secrecy and just say what you want to say. If she has been bullying her teammates, and I think it's perfectly possible that she has, then I'm glad that they reported her so that she can face the consequences of her actions. If Han has been mistreating gymnasts then he needs to do the same thing. Both can be true at once. The NY Times article focused primarily on gymnasts who weren't Ashton, so what would be their motivation for lying?

I recently read Lindsey Lemke's response to seeing Klages finally face charges and some words stuck with me. She said, "This is the reason why victims of abuse don't report- because of the way people retaliate and support enablers and abusers because they choose to not believe and not listen to those trying to use their voices." So I think in this situation I'm going to have to support Ashton as well as those who are victims of Ashton. It's messy and uncomfortable, but that's the way life is sometimes.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I am not personally familiar with the Everest situation, but I have read on several boards that the NY Times article ignored certain facts that were presented that rebutted some of the information presented (e.g., witness not present when they say events occurred). I have also read in multiple places that Ashton was kicked out of Everest for underage drinking and bullying younger children. How can everyone be so sure that the gymnasts saying they were abused are telling the truth, but the gymnasts are lying if they say the abuse claims are false? Maybe Ashton had a bone to pick with the coaches? I have no idea, but we need to hope a FAIR and thorough investigation is done (following up with both sides). These accusations can destroy people’s lives. If they are guilty, they deserve it. But I am worried there is now a risk of the opposite - the public being too quick to condemn. My real concern is the reaction to gymnasts like Schild defending her coach. People act like there has to be something wrong with her. Maybe she has had a good experience and just wants to share it.

Yep. Yep and yep

 

[Loveyourgymnast]

I am personally familiar with all the people mentioned in these comments. Did I ever see Han physically abuse girls no, but he definitely did lots of the mental games. Don’t know if there was a fat group,but on many occasions my daughter was almost sick because they had to work out for more than five hours in summer months without the air conditioning on because he said they were fat and needed to sweat some weight off. If he didn’t like what they were doing or weren’t doing he would ignore them or kick them out of practice. These actions were common for several of the coaches. Ashton did get into some trouble about drinking which involved many of the Everest gymnasts. Bullying was involved but, Ashton and another gymnast were not suspended from the gym until the parents of the victims and several other parenents insisted and contacted Safe Sport. The other gymnast, that remains at Everest, was the main bully. This gymnast was guilty of bullying on social media and there are lots of parents from Everest that saw this and discussed this amoung themselves. Some parents screen shot the bullying and presented it to Safe Sport. This was also reported to Safe Sport and nothing was done. Again, this wasn’t discussed with Han for the fear of what would be done to the kids of the parents who mentioned it. This caused a split in the Everest Team and some gymnasts left. So as you can see bullying is not only by coaches but also not frowned upon by the coaches when they see it happening by their gymnasts. Is Safe Sport really here for the gymnasts or just a way to deflect all the bad press gymnastics has received. We need to protect our children.

 

[vagymmomma]

I am personally familiar with all the people mentioned in these comments. Did I ever see Han physically abuse girls no, but he definitely did lots of the mental games. Don’t know if there was a fat group,but on many occasions my daughter was almost sick because they had to work out for more than five hours in summer months without the air conditioning on because he said they were fat and needed to sweat some weight off. If he didn’t like what they were doing or weren’t doing he would ignore them or kick them out of practice. These actions were common for several of the coaches. Ashton did get into some trouble about drinking which involved many of the Everest gymnasts. Bullying was involved but, Ashton and another gymnast were not suspended from the gym until the parents of the victims and several other parenents insisted and contacted Safe Sport. The other gymnast, that remains at Everest, was the main bully. This gymnast was guilty of bullying on social media and there are lots of parents from Everest that saw this and discussed this amoung themselves. Some parents screen shot the bullying and presented it to Safe Sport. This was also reported to Safe Sport and nothing was done. Again, this wasn’t discussed with Han for the fear of what would be done to the kids of the parents who mentioned it. This caused a split in the Everest Team and some gymnasts left. So as you can see bullying is not only by coaches but also not frowned upon by the coaches when they see it happening by their gymnasts. Is Safe Sport really here for the gymnasts or just a way to deflect all the bad press gymnastics has received. We need to protect our children.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It raises two points for me. First, my DD also experienced bullying in the gym. The bullying was from other gymnasts - not coaches. The easy answer is to tell the coach, but I don't think that's enough and raises other issues like further isolation. Second, this discussion raises the question in my mind of how much a coach can push a child (and I am talking about verbal pushing - not physical). On one hand, I think children (especially teens) may need a shout or other repercussion from the coaches to push them a little more. What is the line though? We had an issue in the gym this past spring coming through the parent's association about how one of the coaches was abusive. When I asked DD about it, she said the coach was tough and yelled sometimes but was not abusive. Is it abusive to not let a gymnast use stacked mats under a beam all year long (particularly on skills they worked on for months and in some cases years)? That is one example of the so called abuse - the coach told them they couldn't start with stacked mats. Other times the yelling was more intense. How does a coach know when it is too much? Does Safe Sport train those kind of limits? The sport obviously has a long way to go.

 

[Seeker]

Welcome to ChalkBucket, @lovemygymnast. I am also very familiar with this situation and your facts are not fully correct or complete. I won’t address all the points as those facts should come out soon, but wanted to say that the hearing for Ashton’s issues hasn’t happened with USAG/SafeSport yet. It was scheduled for early August, but was pushed out. So you can’t say they didn’t do anything - they haven’t made any decisions on it yet.

 

[Loveyourgymnast]

Welcome to ChalkBucket, @lovemygymnast. I am also very familiar with this situation and your facts are not fully correct or complete. I won’t address all the points as those facts should come out soon, but wanted to say that the hearing for Ashton’s issues hasn’t happened with USAG/SafeSport yet. It was scheduled for early August, but was pushed out. So you can’t say they didn’t do anything - they haven’t made any decisions on it yet.

I

Welcome to ChalkBucket, @lovemygymnast. I am also very familiar with this situation and your facts are not fully correct or complete. I won’t address all the points as those facts should come out soon, but wanted to say that the hearing for Ashton’s issues hasn’t happened with USAG/SafeSport yet. It was scheduled for early August, but was pushed out. So you can’t say they didn’t do anything - they haven’t made any decisions on it yet.

I think you missed the point I was making about nothing being done. I understand Ashton has a pending case. I also understand that she was forced to leave the gym that she put on the gymnastic map. Maybe not forced by legal manners but forced by the coaches and the parent of the one that should be out of the gym. This is the person I am speaking of that has had no consequences except for being suspended for a few weeks. Let’s not forget all the facts. If we only tell half the story no one wins. These gymnasts are the most important in all of these situations, but put your daughter in every situation. From the bully to the one that was bullied. Do girls make mistakes, of course, but It is our job as parents and coaches to show them how you deal with mistakes whether you’re the one making one or the one that is the recipient. This is where the breakdown came from! Am I guilty of wanting to coaches to like My child at Everest, of course I am. I have grown since this incident and I really don’t care if they like her Or not. When gymnastics is over my daughter has to be able to survive as a strong healthy adult! I might not be able to teach her to do gymnastics but I can teach her to do that!

 

[gymgal]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It raises two points for me. First, my DD also experienced bullying in the gym. The bullying was from other gymnasts - not coaches. The easy answer is to tell the coach, but I don't think that's enough and raises other issues like further isolation. Second, this discussion raises the question in my mind of how much a coach can push a child (and I am talking about verbal pushing - not physical). On one hand, I think children (especially teens) may need a shout or other repercussion from the coaches to push them a little more. What is the line though? We had an issue in the gym this past spring coming through the parent's association about how one of the coaches was abusive. When I asked DD about it, she said the coach was tough and yelled sometimes but was not abusive. Is it abusive to not let a gymnast use stacked mats under a beam all year long (particularly on skills they worked on for months and in some cases years)? That is one example of the so called abuse - the coach told them they couldn't start with stacked mats. Other times the yelling was more intense. How does a coach know when it is too much? Does Safe Sport train those kind of limits? The sport obviously has a long way to go.

You bring up good points. This will always be an issue - what exactly constitutes abuse. It is a perception rather than a hard line. Certainly, an organization should set up "best practices" but not engaging in best practice does not mean it's abusive. Shouting and shaming is not best practice but is it abuse? There would differing opinions on it. Typically any physical contact like throwing or hitting or pushing gymnasts off equipment would be construed as abusive but there are instances where it may not be. A parent sitting in a lobby without context as to what is happening in the gym may see a physical action as abusive whereas most of the gymnasts may not. Throwing pit blocks for example. And a gymnast who is having difficulty with a coach will interpret his/her same actions differently than another gymnast who has a good relationship.

This is not to discount allegations of abuse but it does muddy the water and it is easy to see why some gymnasts will support a coach and others will not. Even in the Nassar case, you had gymnasts and parents (who were in the same room while the "procedures" were taking place) come out and support him. It is all about perception of actions.

 

[Loveyourgymnast]

You bring up good points. This will always be an issue - what exactly constitutes abuse. It is a perception rather than a hard line. Certainly, an organization should set up "best practices" but not engaging in best practice does not mean it's abusive. Shouting and shaming is not best practice but is it abuse? There would differing opinions on it. Typically any physical contact like throwing or hitting or pushing gymnasts off equipment would be construed as abusive but there are instances where it may not be. A parent sitting in a lobby without context as to what is happening in the gym may see a physical action as abusive whereas most of the gymnasts may not. Throwing pit blocks for example. And a gymnast who is having difficulty with a coach will interpret his/her same actions differently than another gymnast who has a good relationship.

This is not to discount allegations of abuse but it does muddy the water and it is easy to see why some gymnasts will support a coach and others will not. Even in the Nassar case, you had gymnasts and parents (who were in the same room while the "procedures" were taking place) come out and support him. It is all about perception of actions.

You’re exactly right. So the perception of these girls is it they endured abuse so it should be heard by safe sport

You bring up good points. This will always be an issue - what exactly constitutes abuse. It is a perception rather than a hard line. Certainly, an organization should set up "best practices" but not engaging in best practice does not mean it's abusive. Shouting and shaming is not best practice but is it abuse? There would differing opinions on it. Typically any physical contact like throwing or hitting or pushing gymnasts off equipment would be construed as abusive but there are instances where it may not be. A parent sitting in a lobby without context as to what is happening in the gym may see a physical action as abusive whereas most of the gymnasts may not. Throwing pit blocks for example. And a gymnast who is having difficulty with a coach will interpret his/her same actions differently than another gymnast who has a good relationship.

This is not to discount allegations of abuse but it does muddy the water and it is easy to see why some gymnasts will support a coach and others will not. Even in the Nassar case, you had gymnasts and parents (who were in the same room while the "procedures" were taking place) come out and support him. It is all about perception of actions.

You are exactly right! That is why we have to listen to our children. This sport has put parents on the outside and without a voice. It is time for every parent to take charge of these situations!

 

[Seeker]

I

.... Let’s not forget all the facts. If we only tell half the story no one wins. These gymnasts are the most important in all of these situations, but put your daughter in every situation. From the bully to the one that was bullied. Do girls make mistakes, of course, but It is our job as parents and coaches to show them how you deal with mistakes whether you’re the one making one or the one that is the recipient. This is where the breakdown came from! Am I guilty of wanting to coaches to like My child at Everest, of course I am. I have grown since this incident and I really don’t care if they like her Or not. When gymnastics is over my daughter has to be able to survive as a strong healthy adult! I might not be able to teach her to do gymnastics but I can teach her to do that!

Yes, let’s not only present the information that serves the narrative we’re aiming to support. I have heard no one say that anyone isn’t deserving of having their case heard. What I have heard is that people are cautioning others to not make assumptions and form opinions one way or the other if you don’t have all the information. I think that is pretty sound advice for most things in life.

 

[MrsMainch]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/sports/gymnasts-coach-abuse.html

The fat group?!?!!? Disgusting!

New to the forum! Hi! This is in our city. One of the girls, not in the article, is at our gym now. It's pretty disgraceful to know he is still coaching. I pretty sure that's how he was trained too. We have many foreign coaches at our gym and although extremely firm, they also love and nurture the girls. I just think training is different and more intense in Europe and Asia and they bring those styles to their coaching. I am just glad we didn't pick that gym.

 

[profmom]

I wonder what European and Asian elite coaches are saying about American coaches these days? John Geddert has become very famous as an exemplar.

 

[Mish]

So I know none of the people involved personally, but what I do know is that it sounds like it is a breeding ground for this type of behavior. If the atmosphere in the gym is not warm and caring, then comes the bullying, cut throat-ness, etc. Kids who feel like crap treat others like crap. I am a little tired of hearing how "this is how it's done in Europe, Asia, etc." though. There are always going to be those gray areas of tough coaching vs. crossing the line, but empowering our kids to know what makes them uncomfortable and not just accepting that "this is how it has to be for my kid to succeed" has to start with us.