WAG Piking Giants

[AlexsGymmyMom]

Before switching gyms my DD was trying to learn to use a smaller bar setting which ended up with her having a very pikey (is that a word?) giant. This has resulted in her losing momentum and not making many of her giants. We have recently switched gyms but she is still piking and having a hard time getting over on her giants. (afraid of hitting toes). She makes less than 1/2 of them when they used to be very consistent. Do you guys have any additional suggestions or drills that she might try? BTW....she has a fear of straddling the low bar... go figure...the coaches have tried to get her to straddle but its a no go for her at the moment.

 

[iwannacoach]

Is she talking about splitting the bar like on the beam, or is it just that she doesn't want to straddle because she doesn't ant to keep track of two locations where her feet are. The bars go pretty wide and unless she a "tall" gymnast she's have to pretty much try to hit the bar, or just not care to think of missing.

Is her giant "pikey" on the way down, as it sounds from your explanation, or is it pikey on the way up?

Last thing. How tall is she in an approximate sense.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

She's about 5'1. She is piking on the way down so she won't hit her feet on the low bar. I am not sure what setting they are using at the new gym but maybe I can see if they can set them any wider for her. I will have to ask again why she is afraid of straddling the LB while doing her giants but as far as I can gather from the little info she does give me (she is 13) is that she picks up too much momentum when straddling and she can't control it? If that makes sense?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

this is the conundrum of bars. the closer you have the setting to FIG the more precise your technique must be. FIG promotes good giant technique.

what becomes problematic for advancing the learning of bars is when you spread the setting. it's obviously easier to swing giants when the bars are spread further. but this causes the technique required to go awry.

when the bars widen, consideration must be given to low>high>low connections. the farther you spread the bars to allow for a poorly executed giant, the more risk you place on the athlete going from bar to bar. angular momentum is fierce during a giant swing. this is why you read/see things having to do with kids missing the bar on Chinese sit-ups, bails, counter swings and Paks and injuring their shoulders, backs and elbows. spreading the bars creates more swing than they need to perform these aforementioned skills.

when the kids reach upper high school and college, and after several years of training, their strength weight ratio becomes commensurate to the task. their bodies are able to handle the 'physics' of uneven bars and the forces that are created much better.

as you can see at the Chinese National Games, the bars are set even closer than FIG. the FIG spec on AAI bars is 1 click above the line on the high bar (96 inches from the top of the bar to the cement/floor), 1 click above the line on low bar so that the high bar and low bar setting are identical (and 62 1/2 inches from the top of the bar to the cement/floor) 2 lines under 4 on the high bar spreader and all the way up on the low bar spreader. then, when you take a tape measure and place it on the angle measuring from the high bar to the low bar on the inside of both bars the measurement is 181cm or about 72 1/2 inches.



2 lines under 4 gets you that 181cm on the angle. and the rule is 180cm "plus or minus" 1 cm. it doesn't say you can't move them closer from that setting, only that you can't make them wider. 181cm is the maximum spread. understand so far?

now look closely again at the video. you will see that Huang, and every other gymnast before and after, is swinging on AAI bars. Yes, the Chinese use AAI bars. you can clearly see that the low bar spreader has been slid all the way down. there is a black bolt stopper in the upright that prevents this spreader from going any lower. let me tell you, these bars are close. i've never measured this setting, but knowing the AAI bars such that i do, i would guess that the measurement on the angle is closer to 67 inches. that's 5 inches closer than FIG at 72 1/2 inches or 181cm.

if you watch her dismount, Huang performs a straddle giant. certainly when the bars are this close, performing a leg together giant would be very difficult as she is too 'tall'. lol. if her legs were together given her height coupled with the close bar setting, it is more likely than not that she would have to bend or pike A LOT in order to clear the low bar. there is a deduction for 'piking' at the low bar when they giant swing. ironically, and because the bars are set closer, she is to short to perform what you see her do if the bars were set out further to FIG. they are set to accommodate the precision required to perform her Stalder Shaposh>Pak salto>Stalder Shaposh 1/2 turn to high bar. this is a very difficult combination, and my experience tells me that the coaches have the bars set close so that she is able to 'reach' both bars seamlessly with ease.

so, some must learn to straddle. neither one is the 'best one'. some girls gets so tall that they must learn to straddle no matter how wide the bars are set. others are able to perform a leg together giant swing with the bars close or far and because either their body type and length allows them to make a better 'shape' at the low bar, or because they are stronger and can make better shapes at the low bar or a combination of both.

and then there are kids who will be chronically scared that they will hit the low bar. spreading the bars all the way out is a bad idea for the reasons i gave above. plus, doing so would not allow any kids to be developed for the Elite program. so you teach these kids to straddle. there has been much discussion at the Ranch about this. Valeri's position is that you should straddle because that is what the best bar workers are doing and they don't suffer a deduction at the low bar because of this. And maybe this is the most important at the elite level.

my athlete is very short and straddles her giants to eliminate the pike altogether at the low bar. when she performs a leg together giant there is a very slight pike at the low bar. enough so that there is a deduction not only in the compulsory exercise but the optional exercise as well. so, when you're trying to eliminate these small deductions you do what you must do as an athlete and coach. if the athlete does not have 'fear' issues, doing either one does not present a challenge. for instance, this athlete can perform a 2ble 2ble bar dismount from both pike and straddle. we are still experimenting to learn which will work best for her for when the time comes to put it at the end of an elite bar routine. and that might never happen regardless of which giant she performs. that would be an issue of cardio/muscle endurance.

you'll have to explain to your daughter just that. the coaches can place mats over the low bar, tweak the setting to figure out where best to set them for all she must do now and in the future and play/experiment with both techniques in straddling and closed legs.

but in the final analysis? she'll have to put up or shut up. she may have no say in this matter. her body measurements will dictate what she is going to have to do and where her bars will be set. this is the hardest of all things that can happen at bars that MUST be overcome by both the athlete and coach. do i need to tell you all how DIFFICULT it is to overcome something such as this at bars when you have an illogically and overtly scared athlete that is uncooperative?

i have been here long enough for you all to understand that i am NOT singling out this kid. it's all kids that have this problem to overcome along with their coaches. their bar work will NOT develop and progress if they don't get over this issue. and diverting too far away from FIG depending on the athletes anthropometric metrics can be unsafe to the athlete.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

She's about 5'1. She is piking on the way down so she won't hit her feet on the low bar. I am not sure what setting they are using at the new gym but maybe I can see if they can set them any wider for her. I will have to ask again why she is afraid of straddling the LB while doing her giants but as far as I can gather from the little info she does give me (she is 13) is that she picks up too much momentum when straddling and she can't control it? If that makes sense?

in fact, straddling diverts angular momentum at the low bar and slows it down just a bit. this is because the axis shortens for a moment before it elongates again and goes thru the bottom. and of course overtly piking can do the same thing. it will slow you down. therefore, you can see that her problem has more to do with swinging 'fast' versus whether she might hit her feet on the low bar. and of course there is a low bar in the way of the swing. a girl could never swing as hard or as fast as a boy on the high bar. for those of us coaches that know this, sometimes putting a girl up on a boys high bar, or swinging on a single girls bar, and going around as fast as possible can bring some rationale and understanding to the athlete. it will cause them great 'discomfort' doing this but it can break them of this fear.

 

[coachmolly]

Dunno's summary is far above and beyond what I could ever say, but I'll give it a shot. Do they have a pit bar or single high bar? I wonder if measuring and putting a piece of pre-wrap where the low bar would be could help her get the feel for body shapes without hitting the low bar. She can see she does not need to pike so much to miss the low bar without the fear of hitting it should she not pike quite enough. Then comes the challenge of generalizing the timing and shapes back to the competition set of bars which is more of a mental barrier than a physical one at that point.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

Thanks Dunno for this!!!
I will let Alex read this for sure! She is what you would call the illogically and overtly scared athlete that is uncooperative ( well not really uncooperative though...just mental!! lol!

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I hit send before I was done! So sorry for some of this being a repeat!!!

Thanks Dunno for this!!! WOW there is alot more to this than I thought!!!
I will let Alex read this for sure! She is what you would call the illogically and overtly scared athlete that is uncooperative ( well not really uncooperative though...just mental!! lol!
I had never thought of the setting being wider as a hinderence in the long run. Now it makes sense but at this point I am not sure what level she will get to. It may be that a release move will not be in her future but it is definatley something to take into consideration when assesing where her bar setting should be!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno's summary is far above and beyond what I could ever say, but I'll give it a shot. Do they have a pit bar or single high bar? I wonder if measuring and putting a piece of pre-wrap where the low bar would be could help her get the feel for body shapes without hitting the low bar. She can see she does not need to pike so much to miss the low bar without the fear of hitting it should she not pike quite enough. Then comes the challenge of generalizing the timing and shapes back to the competition set of bars which is more of a mental barrier than a physical one at that point.

yes, Molly. i just assume that all coaches put mats over the low bar and put 'fake' bars in made of pre-wrap or velcro or surgical tubing or whatever they have. you can't overcome this particular fear without doing so. it's an industry practice.

 

[coachmolly]

yes, Molly. i just assume that all coaches put mats over the low bar and put 'fake' bars in made of pre-wrap or velcro or surgical tubing or whatever they have. you can't overcome this particular fear without doing so. it's an industry practice.

I've had the good fortune of working alongside coaches who sometimes overlook the obvious, so figured it wouldn't hurt to suggest it .

 

[Deleted member D3987]

 

[Chalky]

Dunno, I was actually going to ask you about the Chinese bar settings when I first saw videos of their nationals on you tube a couple of months ago.... I also noticed that the bars were AAI, and also noticed that they had the low bar spreader way down. Why wouldn't they just have the LB spreader at "F" or all the way up and make the bars closer by moving the HB spreader up? The only thing I could think of is that if moving the LB spreader up makes the bars more stable (less wiggling of the uprights between where the LB spreader tightens and where the cables attach), then maybe moving the LB spreader down gives the bars a little more give for those tiny Chinese athletes.

I still don't understand why many optional and college programs with older/taller athletes who are def. not going Elite don't put the LB spreader all the way up and the HB spreader all the way down/out. Surely, that would give a little more room. I'm a bar setting nerd!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno, I was actually going to ask you about the Chinese bar settings when I first saw videos of their nationals on you tube a couple of months ago.... I also noticed that the bars were AAI, and also noticed that they had the low bar spreader way down. Why wouldn't they just have the LB spreader at "F" or all the way up and make the bars closer by moving the HB spreader up? The only thing I could think of is that if moving the LB spreader up makes the bars more stable (less wiggling of the uprights between where the LB spreader tightens and where the cables attach), then maybe moving the LB spreader down gives the bars a little more give for those tiny Chinese athletes.

I still don't understand why many optional and college programs with older/taller athletes who are def. not going Elite don't put the LB spreader all the way up and the HB spreader all the way down/out. Surely, that would give a little more room. I'm a bar setting nerd!

gotcha. you're right. bringing the low bar spreader all the way up does make the apparatus more stable when it's tightened. USAG considered making this a rule, but i don't know what happened with that discussion.

here's why. when you raise the high bar spreader, it pushes the high bar towards the low bar making the high bar more vertical actually making the gymnasts feet closer to the low bar. but when you lower the low bar spreader, the high bar stays almost in its place but the low bar moves closer to the high bar but at a different angle. it's how the cantilever works on AAI. does that make sense?

finally, jacking those settings all the way out and lowering the low bar and raising the high bar to get even more distance can be dangerous to the athlete. if you make the bars like boys high bar, they will be swinging at speeds that could rival the boys, but would be unsafe dropping to the low bar as i explained further above. and certainly if they peeled off towards the low bar.

 

[Chalky]

gotcha. you're right. bringing the low bar spreader all the way up does make the apparatus more stable when it's tightened. USAG considered making this a rule, but i don't know what happened with that discussion.

here's why. when you raise the high bar spreader, it pushes the high bar towards the low bar making the high bar more vertical actually making the gymnasts feet closer to the low bar. but when you lower the low bar spreader, the high bar stays almost in its place but the low bar moves closer to the high bar but at a different angle. it's how the cantilever works on AAI. does that make sense?

finally, jacking those settings all the way out and lowering the low bar and raising the high bar to get even more distance can be dangerous to the athlete. if you make the bars like boys high bar, they will be swinging at speeds that could rival the boys, but would be unsafe dropping to the low bar as i explained further above. and certainly if they peeled off towards the low bar.

Thanks for replying Dunno. Like I said, I'm a bit of a nerd when in comes to these things, but I would rather understand WHY something is done, than just follow with the crowd.....

Thank you for your explanation of the effects of moving the LB end of the spreader rather than the HB end or vice versa. That makes sense now.

Regarding the LB spreader all the way up, and HB spreader all the way out, I was def. thinking of mature, skilled gymnasts with adequate upper body strength to cope with the forces, like DI athletes at top colleges. I have noticed that many of Oklahoma's athletes use this setting and today I saw on YT that Utah seems to be using it too.

Going back to the OP, even though your daughter is going through some frustration and difficulties right now, I think Dunno is 100 % correct about the importance of having her perform the giant correctly. If a smaller bar setting forces her to do this, it will pay off in the long run. I don't understand coaches who put small kids on crazy wide bar settings. When they go through a growth spurt, they will basically have to re-learn skills. It might seem easier / faster to get the skill initially, but come puberty things can dramatically change. I hope the OP's daughter gets the confidence to get past this bump in the road

 

[iwannacoach]

I'm reminded of the first generation of giants done on the old narrow bars that kids used for wrap and beat work. Then the bars that were converted with only a longer fixed length spreader, and then I think there was one last incarnation of bars prior to the fig bars of present day.

Oh boy, but weren't giants fun to teach back then.

 

[Faith]

I'm reminded of the first generation of giants done on the old narrow bars that kids used for wrap and beat work.

Oh boy, but weren't giants fun to teach back then.

I was very young then *cough* but I remember giants being pretty much an elite skill. With no pits, pit bars or ability to work with loops you certainly didn't get young kids working them like you do now. And if memory serves (I did say I was very young ) no dowel grips, if grips were used at all.

It usually involved two or three strong coaches and an elaborate platform system so two could reach the high bar, with one on catch duty underneath.