WAG Seeing the previous events' scores

[Yuenling]

Have you guys ever wondered if judges are biased by the previous event's score? For instance, as a booster club volunteer, I sat next to the floor judge and I heard her commenting to the other judge "bad vault. ", "great beam", or "poor girl is having a rough meet".

Granted this judge has been judging for many years. I have seen her at many meets in my daughter's 4 years of competing and as a meet volunteer .

I also notice that if a girl has a spectacular 1st 2-3 events, then unless the girl makes a horrible error in the next event, her next score will be in the same range. Like if she had a 9.5 in all her other events, then her floor score will be a 9.5'ish.

I have seen girls go from 36 in one meet to 38 in the next and then back to 36. It's almost like you can tell if it's going to be a good meet based on the first events.

I'm not talking about a girl's confidence being affected by her previous event either. I'm saying that I notice inconsistency in judging based on this pattern of a judge being able to see the girl's previous event's scores

Do judges always see all the scores of a meet?

If so, I believe some judges are not biased by the previous scores but I could see it not always being the case.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ausi_poppet]

I think it's like the judging/refereeing in any sport, well at least here in Australia it is. The lower the level the more likely that the judge is to be less experienced and sometimes more partial. I don't think it's an intentional thing, I think it's just that they haven't built up the experience yet.

I used to umpire hockey matches and I was OK at it. Some people really complained, so I'd just enforce the rules and remind them that I'm only human and we all play with the same standard of umpiring, so if they didn't like it they should complain through their club, but it was pretty nerve racking sometimes.

There are so many places that deductions can be made in gymnastics, and I think these are done more strictly or not depending on the purpose of the competition and the experience of the judges. We sometimes have meets with only 2 judges on apparatus (like invitations) and there can be some really unfair scores there, particularly if there's some bad blood between two clubs, but for most of our competitions there are three or four judges so that doesn't really happen.

Our scoring program doesn't have the judges seeing what gymnasts are getting on other apparatus. I've been an averager at heaps of meets where you enter in the raw E scores, and they are so focussed on their own apparatus that they don't pay any attention elsewhere unless they finish ahead of the rotation, and then they might watch some gymnasts on a nearby apparatus. They will sometimes comment is someone who they know is a good gymnast has a bad day, and I've heard them talk about what to do with someone who has a terrible score where they not only fell 3-4 times but also had poor technique and left compulsory skills out.

I too have seen scores from one meet to another vary widely, but I've found that they are usually pretty consistent across a particular meet. My daughter competed a couple of times in events that were split into three sessions. She competed in the first session at 7.30 am and at presentation at 7pm she and her training partner had the highest two scores for the day, having been standouts in their session. I was pretty impressed that the judges could maintain consistency across nearly 12 hours and 120 competitors.

 

[profmom]

A judge would only see previous scores at a meet if they're all on one card that gets passed from event to event. Some meets do it this way; seems to be more of a thing on the boys' side here than the girls. I don't think it makes a difference though. They pretty much judge what they see in almost all cases. Good and bad form tend to carry through from event to event, even though most of them have some events where they tend to be better than others. As you move along, you'll find that once they get into optionals, they will more frequently have an event or two that's an outlier, because falls and the potential for large errors become more of a factor.

Yes, judges who've been around for a while sometimes do come to recognize the kids. I don't think this makes a big difference either. I have noticed that my daughter's least favorite bugaboo judge, who often judges vault, has gradually come to "like" her a little more as DD's block has improved. I also think that guy who frequently judges pommel horse at states has given DS a few unwarranted gifts because he really likes the look of a kid who can keep a straight body and tight form when he's swinging, but I figure it all evens out over time and across events.

 

[Redford]

Judges do that, teachers do that, people will always be influenced by expectation.
I also see it happen a lot with good teams. Weaker gymnasts in those teams tend to get better scores than the equal gymnast from a weaker team. Gymnastics will never be absolutly neutral.
But consider that a 9.5 beam routine in one competition isn't necessarily the same as the 9.5 routine in the next competition. A good judge compares between the gymnasts on that particular event, not between different events or competitions.

 

[gymdog]

I mean it would be hard not to notice on the scorecard but I don't think it's exactly what's influencing the score. Maybe a bit, because expectations are everything. But it seems more likely that a kid who scores a 9.5 on one event just is more likely to score that on another event based on her form and power or whatever.

 

[Yuenling]

I really like the points that you all have made, and I agree with them.

Just wanted to say that we are in Region 1, and my daughter used to bring home a lot of score cards, so I imagined that they are always being passed around in the meet. But I'm not sure. I also feel that the states judging seems more consistent, so I wonder if they do not have score cards passed around at that meet.

 

[Gymmommy71]

Gosh - I've never thought about that. I'd think it wouldn't make much difference because a lot of gymnasts are strong in some events and weak in others, plus things like uncharacteristic falls happen that can drastically affect scores - and judges of all people should understand these things. I've never really seen a pattern w/ my DD scoring worse in her better events when she does her weaker events first and vice versa either.

I also find it hard to believe that w/ so many girls to score that judges have the time to let anything other than the routine that's happening right in front of them affect their scores - even warm ups that happen minutes earlier right in front of them. And so many gymnasts look a like too.

The only judge bias that I believe in is that scores tend to go up the later a gymnast goes in the order. And even then I've seen that one proven untrue.

Now some judges score certain things harder than others, and some judges like/dislike certain styles IMO. But even that is consistent across the meet.

 

[ZJsMom]

I've been at the judges table at meets many times and I've never seen judges looking through the scorecards before they judge or paying any attention to the previous scores.

 

[Yuenling]

Glad to hear that it's not so common. I guess I was horrified when I heard the judge's comments as she was looking at the score card before the girls' routine began.

I was remembering that my DD used to bring her score cards home, and it didn't dawn on me until sitting next to the floor judge that they actually look at the other scores until then.

I still think that to improve the objectivity of judging, the previous event's score should not be seen. I also think the order of competition should be randomized, like in States, but that's a different thread.

 

[gymjunkie]

Why do people worry about so many things in this sport they cannot control?!

 

[chalkbowl]

Why do people worry about so many things in this sport they cannot control?!

Where is the LOVE button...

 

[Yuenling]

Why do people worry about so many things in this sport they cannot control?!

Definitely, no sport is perfect,and gymnastics seems to be a sport about achieving perfection. There are a lot of things out of one's control, but it seems like making simple changes like keeping previous scores hidden and randomizing the line up can help rule out some uncertainty.

 

[saddlupasb]

I've judged meets where they did pass the card along, but it doesn't influence your score. I think maybe those kids are just that good?

 

[meganliz77]

Why do people worry about so many things in this sport they cannot control?!

I don't think OP is worrying about anything, but is just trying to understand. As a parent and spectator, there are a million questions that have come to mind...like what is the deduction for going over the bell on beam for example? I'm not necessarily worried about anything and realize none of it is in my control, but as humans I think it's natural to wonder and CB is a great place to ask questions. (And I'm never going to understand scoring and don't honestly care to, but a point of reference is a good thing)

And I actually find OP's question interesting... I had never considered it yet we do have meets where the scorecard is passed around (just had one Saturday!) interesting enough my DD attended a gym camp this summer out of the area and one of her coaches was a judge who had seen her at comp last year... The judge knew her by first and last name...so it does make a person wonder!

 

[cbifoja]

I am absolutely no expert but after working a few meets, I just don't see how judges have the time to worry about what happened beforehand. They have a job to do.....judge this kid on this event in this amount of time and get through the session....oh and man are they hungry and would like to grab something to eat and visit the restroom before session 8 begins and they see their 300th girl of the day.

I've never noticed a judge paying much attention to the ribbon cards and besides, optionals don't get them anyway. I don't believe in leotard bias and only rarely believe in line up bias.

I think that your kid works hard and performs how she performs and the judges judge on that one performance....at least at the compulsory and lower optional levels. Maybe the elites have some sort of nudge nudge wink wink environment but I'll never know about it if they do! LOL

 

[meganliz77]

I don't think OP is worrying about anything, but is just trying to understand. As a parent and spectator, there are a million questions that have come to mind...like what is the deduction for going over the bell on beam for example? I'm not necessarily worried about anything and realize none of it is in my control, but as humans I think it's natural to wonder and CB is a great place to ask questions. (And I'm never going to understand scoring and don't honestly care to, but a point of reference is a good thing)

And I actually find OP's question interesting... I had never considered it yet we do have meets where the scorecard is passed around (just had one Saturday!) interesting enough my DD attended a gym camp this summer out of the area and one of her coaches was a judge who had seen her at comp last year... The judge knew her by first and last name...so it does make a person wonder!

But I should qualify this... My daughter seems to be (according to others) a kid that stands out in competition... So I did not mean to suggest someone is playing favorites or is otherwise influenced... Just noting that it was interesting question I had not considered.

 

[Gym Beam]

Why do people worry about so many things in this sport they cannot control?!

Well, then what would happen to Chalkbucket? Okay, I jest...sorta...

 

[MeetDirector]

At all of my meets I have a score card for each athlete where the judge's scores are recorded. The score card moves from event to event, usually though the hands of the coach. Each judge puts the score for that event on the card and it goes to the scoring table. At the end of the rotation, the cards go to the coach who puts them in order for the next event. Unless you have a fixed rotation order, the order for each event is determined by the coach. The judges don't even look at the card, except for the athlete name and number, until it is time to write the score for that event.

Do the judges get to know which athlete is which over the season? Of course; and they can see improvement over the season as well. Frankly, judging bias is the very last thing there is to worry about. If parents want to understand what a gymnast is getting deducted for (e.g., 0.1 for going overtime on beam) I encourage you to get a copy of the rules (both the Rules & Policies and the Code of Points) and understand the sport. On the other hand, if you just want to sit back and enjoy the amazing things you daughters can do, that is OK too.

 

[raenndrops]

Gosh - I've never thought about that. I'd think it wouldn't make much difference because a lot of gymnasts are strong in some events and weak in others, plus things like uncharacteristic falls happen that can drastically affect scores - and judges of all people should understand these things. I've never really seen a pattern w/ my DD scoring worse in her better events when she does her weaker events first and vice versa either.

I also find it hard to believe that w/ so many girls to score that judges have the time to let anything other than the routine that's happening right in front of them affect their scores - even warm ups that happen minutes earlier right in front of them. And so many gymnasts look a like too.

The only judge bias that I believe in is that scores tend to go up the later a gymnast goes in the order. And even then I've seen that one proven untrue.

Now some judges score certain things harder than others, and some judges like/dislike certain styles IMO. But even that is consistent across the meet.

We used to have a judge that HATED the FHS vault. She hated it so much that any other option at Xcel Gold / Platinum or L6/7 would score better for relatively the same vault (angles, arch/ pike, knees, arms, feet, steps). OG went from 8.6 to a 9.0 by switching to a 1/2-1/2

There is another judge that does not seem to like our team very much... but two meets in a row, she gave YG personal best scores on Beam - finding only 1.0 and 0.8 in deductions. Good enough for 2nd place both times

 

[dmbgymnast]

Coming from a gymnast- I do tend to do better on my weaker events when I do my strongest event first, where id usually get a 9.5+...but that could be a confidence thing rather than a judge being biased