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Simone Biles Amanar, Rio 2016 Vault Qualifications

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dreambig

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Where do you think she is getting the -.3 in deductions from?

I see -.1 for the small hop on landing and -.1 for the crossed feet in the air. But I'm not sure where they found the third tenth, any ideas?
 

azara

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I'm not seeing a third tenth, either, but lots of judges automatically deduct for leg separation on pre-flight. It's possible she got done with that. Also possible she was hit with a closed shoulder angle deduction on contact with the table, though that would also be pretty cruel.
 

coachp

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I am no expert , but FIG judging
Has a much wider range of deductions than JO. So .3 could of been taken for any one of those deductions.
 

dreambig

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I'm not seeing a third tenth, either, but lots of judges automatically deduct for leg separation on pre-flight. It's possible she got done with that. Also possible she was hit with a closed shoulder angle deduction on contact with the table, though that would also be pretty cruel.
Interesting had not even thought about the closed shoulder angle deduction. Thank you, something new to learn about!

Does anyone know how the middle line deduction works? She lands with both feet on center, but then after the small hop neither foot is touchcing the middle line. Does the gymnast just have to touch the middle line at some point on landing with their feet, or does it only matter where their feet ultimately settle on landing?

Really not trying to be pedantic just trying to learn the code in depth! Figured the best place to start would be a virtually perfect vault :).
 

azara

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Interesting had not even thought about the closed shoulder angle deduction. Thank you, something new to learn about!

Does anyone know how the middle line deduction works? She lands with both feet on center, but then after the small hop neither foot is touchcing the middle line. Does the gymnast just have to touch the middle line at some point on landing with their feet, or does it only matter where their feet ultimately settle on landing?

Really not trying to be pedantic just trying to learn the code in depth! Figured the best place to start would be a virtually perfect vault :).
There's a neutral deduction for stepping outside the corridor - 0.1 for one foot, 0.3 for both, and I think 0.5 if you're unfortunate enough to land outside it completely (same as floor).

There is also a "direction" deduction for 0.1, so I would assume that if you land within the corridor, but nowhere close to the centre line, you can get deducted for that.
 
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dreambig

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azara you are my fave <3 learning so much from you so quickly!

One thing though, when does the corridor deduction take place? Is it the final resting place of the feet, or wherever the feet first fell? It seems timing might be a factor? Personally I think wherever the feet first land should have more importance; in this example, no deduction since she lands on center before taking the hop. Logic being, it's much more difficult to flip and twist and land on the center of the line than it is to land elsewhere and then "hop" into the right place.

Reading through the code (both the old and the new) it doesn't seem to clarify? Have we discovered a loose end!?
 

azara

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I'm afraid I don't know exactly how it's applied, because as far as I can tell, the Code doesn't specify. The exact deduction is "deviation from a straight direction", though I wonder how well the judges can tell, given that they sit directly side-on.

If you go to the Code (type in "wag cop 2017-20" and it should be the first PDF that pops up), on Section 10, page 3, there's a list of all the deductions specific to vault. You'll find there are a lot there that you wouldn't have thought of. I did, at least!

You should also be aware from early on that the Code has a lot of loose ends. It's an extremely poorly drafted, overly hefty, and overall painful document.

In any case, if you want to practice applying deductions, here are a couple of vaults to have a crack at. Of course, feel free to watch in slow motion, pause, watch more than once; whatever you like. Let me know when you've got your E-scores, and I'll tell you what the actual E-scores were.

 

dreambig

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Ooo I like this game!

Before I go picking these apart, just want to say all these vaults are absolutely gorgeous, these are mesmerizingly amazing gymnasts who have worked so hard to get to where they are. They're so incredible!

So I think Hurd and Melnikova's DTY should get similar execution scores. I would say the range should be 8.8-9.2 depending on how picky the judges wanted to be.
I think for both you have some leg separation issues, bent knees during the second twist, little bit of a pike down and a small hop on landing. I'm not sure how to asses the shoulder/hip angle or the dynamics deductions. Both appear to have straight arms during their blocks. I think both might get a slight tenth off in height deductions. Hurd's distance is good whereas I think Melnikova might get a tenth off. Both land on the middle line (but then hop off of it just like Simone did).

Ellie's vault comparatively seems like it should score a little bit lower, I'd say from 8.6-9.0. I see shoulder-width leg seperation pre-flight, and the angle of her body while blocking seems a bit off to me, more than 10 degrees past vertical. Not sure which specific deduction that might be, maybe body alignment? I think she probably did incur an "excessive snap" deduction because she snaps into a pike shape right before initiating the twist. She'd also get hit with deviation from the stretched position due to the pike in air. Her height seems ok but distance seems a little short, although this is a forward entry vault. She has a little bit of bent knees towards the end of her twist. She takes a small hop on landing but it looks like she lands on the middle line and stays there.

These were super hard, I'm probably off on some of them, let me know!
 

NY Dad

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So I think Hurd and Melnikova's DTY should get similar execution scores. I would say the range should be 8.8-9.2 depending on how picky the judges wanted to be.
I think for both you have some leg separation issues, bent knees during the second twist, little bit of a pike down and a small hop on landing. I'm not sure how to asses the shoulder/hip angle or the dynamics deductions. Both appear to have straight arms during their blocks. I think both might get a slight tenth off in height deductions. Hurd's distance is good whereas I think Melnikova might get a tenth off. Both land on the middle line (but then hop off of it just like Simone did).

Ellie's vault comparatively seems like it should score a little bit lower, I'd say from 8.6-9.0. I see shoulder-width leg seperation pre-flight, and the angle of her body while blocking seems a bit off to me, more than 10 degrees past vertical. Not sure which specific deduction that might be, maybe body alignment? I think she probably did incur an "excessive snap" deduction because she snaps into a pike shape right before initiating the twist. She'd also get hit with deviation from the stretched position due to the pike in air. Her height seems ok but distance seems a little short, although this is a forward entry vault. She has a little bit of bent knees towards the end of her twist. She takes a small hop on landing but it looks like she lands on the middle line and stays there.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking too. ;)

I'm 100% clueless but I am finding this fascinating.

ETA- Reminder to self, never post a video of my (Copper 1) dd at a meet LOL
 
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azara

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Ooo I like this game!

Before I go picking these apart, just want to say all these vaults are absolutely gorgeous, these are mesmerizingly amazing gymnasts who have worked so hard to get to where they are. They're so incredible!

So I think Hurd and Melnikova's DTY should get similar execution scores. I would say the range should be 8.8-9.2 depending on how picky the judges wanted to be.
I think for both you have some leg separation issues, bent knees during the second twist, little bit of a pike down and a small hop on landing. I'm not sure how to asses the shoulder/hip angle or the dynamics deductions. Both appear to have straight arms during their blocks. I think both might get a slight tenth off in height deductions. Hurd's distance is good whereas I think Melnikova might get a tenth off. Both land on the middle line (but then hop off of it just like Simone did).

Ellie's vault comparatively seems like it should score a little bit lower, I'd say from 8.6-9.0. I see shoulder-width leg seperation pre-flight, and the angle of her body while blocking seems a bit off to me, more than 10 degrees past vertical. Not sure which specific deduction that might be, maybe body alignment? I think she probably did incur an "excessive snap" deduction because she snaps into a pike shape right before initiating the twist. She'd also get hit with deviation from the stretched position due to the pike in air. Her height seems ok but distance seems a little short, although this is a forward entry vault. She has a little bit of bent knees towards the end of her twist. She takes a small hop on landing but it looks like she lands on the middle line and stays there.

These were super hard, I'm probably off on some of them, let me know!
Your analysis is great and your guesses were spot on. Hurd scored a 9.05 for that vault. I'd say her biggest problem is lack of height, for which I suspect 0.3 was taken, mostly because I can't find any other way to get it down so low, haha. The hop back on landing should only be a 0.1 deduction, as the rule is more than one metre to take 0.3. Her form in the air is pretty excellent, but little things add up: I'd point towards have crossed feet, slightly bent legs, and a low chest angle on landing, which would cost her a bit more. On the preflight, I'd take a 0.1 for the deepish arch she's got going on (you can see it in her lower back), and on repulsion I might take 0.1 for her shoulder angle, which is pretty closed at the initation of the second flight phase.

I've got:
0.3 lack of height
0.1 hop
0.1 legs
0.1 feet
0.1 chest
0.1 arch
0.1 shoulder angle

I only found those deductions by watching several times in super slow motion, so how actual judges do it is pretty impressive. Some of my deductions will differ from the actual judges because I'm probably forgetting things, so don't take my word as gospel (I'm still learning!).

Melnikova scored a 9.1, so you're totally correct: very similar to Hurd. I do think that Hurd deserved the higher score, here, but Rio was pretty loose generally, scoring-wise. I would take the direction deduction for Melnikova, because she obviously hopped sideways to regain control. In the pre-flight, she has a clear leg separation. It's hard to see shoulder angle. During post-flight, Melka's legs are all over the place. I'd take 0.3 for the separation, and 0.1 for being bent. In the old Code, the 0.3 landing deduction was "more than shoulder width"; now, I suspect only 0.1 would be taken for her landing, but let's go with what was used at the time. Finally, she's piking down a fair bit to land. Probably not enough to constitute 0.3. I would only take 0.1 for height, but then, I would only take that for Hurd as well.

0.1 leg sep
0.1 direction
0.1 feet
0.3 leg sep
0.1 bent legs
0.3 landing
0.1 piking
0.1 height

So yeah, I've got that at an 8.8, and I think those criticisms are pretty fair. The Rio judges were feeling pretty generous!

Finally, Ellie Black. Again, you were right that the execution score wasn't as good as the other two. She scored an 8.8 for this. Her pre-flight isn't awesome: she's losing 0.3 for leg sep, 0.1 for bent legs, and probably 0.3 for arch alone. At least, I would take those deductions :p. During repulsion, she has lovely straight arms, which is how she gets a high block, but her shoulder angle is poor. There does not appear to be a deduction for repulsion after vertical, so I won't take for that. She doesn't maintain the stretched position throughout (she's quite piked) and I would also take off for excessive snap. Her knees become a bit loose in the second half of the post-flight, though this would be hard to see in real time. Her landing, however, absolutely rocks, and she's only going to lose 0.1 for that tiny hop. I also wouldn't take dynamics deductions: Ellie's vault gives the impression of being very strong and powerful.

0.3 leg sep
0.1 bent legs
0.3 arch
0.1 past vertical
0.1 shoulder angle
0.1 alignment
0.1 snap (or 0.3, if I were having a bad day)
0.1 knees
0.1 landing

So I have this at an 8.7/5 - again, I'm pretty harsh here, and there's no way the judges would manage to see all of that. In real time, it's very difficult to see even half of the lists we made. I have great admiration for the judges at these events.

You did very well! And this was great practice for me, too, so thank you. Let me know if you want more.
 
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dreambig

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I think you're spot on with your deductions; you really have an eye for this!

After watching the vaults in slow motion, I'm almost comfortable with coming up with fair execution scores and the various deductions, like oh that's a 9.2-9.4 and there were some bent knees in the air and a small hop on landing. But I'm finding it really difficult to decide on the magnitude of the deductions (one tenth vs. three tenth) even when going through slow motion. Do you have any advice on this front? For experienced judges I'm sure after seeing two hundred DTY from different gymnasts in person you get a sense of what perfection looks like for each feature of the Code and the deviations thereof. Hopefully I'll get there, my dream is to become an international judge one day!

Do you know how the E-score judging works in real time? Like, do they have to account for each deduction like you did or do they just submit their final score without such accounting? I know for diving it's the latter; they just have to submit a final score. I kind of hope they do have to catalog each deduction and also I wish they would release that information after each competition so judges in training can learn from them! But I doubt that will ever happen.

For the shoulder angle deduction, any idea if it only occurs when the angle is more acute than in the picture below? It looks like the shoulders are about at a 160 degree angle give or take a bit.
upload_2017-12-16_14-8-57.png

Curious, which deductions would you take for this amanar?

 
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