Starting a High Performance Team Track ("A" Team vs. "B" Team)

[gymgal]

My oh my! this is a sensitive topic!

Personally, I think it is all how it it approached. When dd first started on pre-team, they had so many girls that they divided them by age into 2 different teams. The younger team went less hours and they continued this for 2 years (so pre-team and 1st yr of competition), but some of the parents complained and the gym eventually placed all the girls in one team. Enough girls had dropped out or moved so this made it possible numbers-wise. A lot of people would say that less hours wasn't fair to the younger girls but in actuality, these girls did better than the other girls because there were less on that team so they had a smaller ratio and more reps available than the older team. My dd was on the younger team and I personally liked it because she was in the gym one less day than the older team. I was trying to be very careful about burnout so early on.

If what you are looking for is to split the groups so that the more skilled ones (or more motivated ones) are all together and working the same skills at the same pace, I don't see anything wrong with this. If you are looking to give these girls more hours (which you didn't mention but others brought it up) without setting a specific reason why, then I think you would be going down a slippery slope. If you were to set up a high school track to prepare some of the older girls for high school gymnastics, then it would be OK to have a different set of hours because their goals are different. I think part of coaching (just like teaching) is to recognize and convey realistic goals to gymnasts and parents. And no, I am not talking about crushing dreams at 5-6yrs old

 

[JBS]

No decision have been made about our team yet. One thing has been decided. We will either be going to some style of A and B teams...or we will be intensifying the entire team to more of an A style team.

As far as hours. Most likely one team will be going more hours...but I have no problem offering everyone those same hours. I am quite sure that many will not want those hours.

I am also not a coach that believes in hiding things. If there is an A and B team...people will know. They will know how kids are picked. Heck...they can read much of it online right here. I have nothing to hide. I have even gone as far as recommending local gyms that would be more their style.

Each gym should have it's own vision. Our vision is not the same as club X, Y, or Z. Team members must believe in our vision to be a successful and happy part of our team family.

 

[agymmom]

I actually think it is identical to soccer and basketball and baseball. I just had a boy from my team not make the travel baseball team...he was not happy. The boys all know that the travel team is made up of the best kids and it is coached by a former pro baseball player. It is expected that the travel team will be better than the regular town little league team.

Yes, but I'm guessing the boy was simply not offered a spot on the travel baseball team at all. That is somewhat different than offering a kid a spot on a lesser team, but telling them they are somehow still all part of the same team and will compete with (and against) the kids who got offered the spot on the better team.

By the bold above...I would say their designed system is working perfectly. The B track kid that overcomes the challenge could be one of the best. The kids that leave or quit are not the ones that I am looking for. If the program is done correctly...it should lose more B track kids as the levels increase. If the A kids are leaving...it is not working.

Did it ever occur to you that the B kids are leaving because of the way the system was designed? They were not deemed good-enough and maybe eventually got tired of it. How many of those kids might have stayed in the program had it not been designed that way? Does it not matter since they were never going to be superstars? Is it really only about producing elite gymnasts? If that is the case, then design your program however you see fit to produce only the best gymnasts, but realize you're likely to piss off the masses along the way.

 

[maryRS]

I'm thinking of it as you have a bunch of girls at age 12, and just say, there are 5 B teamers level 7 and 5 A teamers level 7 in the same gym, on the same team. How does that work for competition. Will the A team compete different meets? Otherwise they would be competing against each other, even if not in the same session, they will be comparing scores. I don't know, I'm not explaining it well. My kids play soccer and basketball and we've dealt with A team, B team, elite and Rec all the way through. I just can't see it being the same in gymnastics. I mean I guess it can work, but there just wouldn't be a lot of team unity, and I think that is something about gymnastics that seems to make the girls happy, I'm not sure how my daughter would feel if in her gym there was her team and then there was an A team, and they competed the same level. I could be completely misunderstanding what you are intending though. I just don't think it's a good comparison to sports that within an age group have multiple divisions.

You totally lost me. An 11 year old can compete in L3-L10 and Xcel in USAG. I do not want my gymnastics team getting blown out of the water. Also...I am a team coach...we compete against other teams. The A and B teams are all on the same team.



If soccer doesn't put 7 year olds with 12 year olds...why should we?

I actually think it is identical to soccer and basketball and baseball. I just had a boy from my team not make the travel baseball team...he was not happy. The boys all know that the travel team is made up of the best kids and it is coached by a former pro baseball player. It is expected that the travel team will be better than the regular town little league team.

 

[MaryA]

You totally lost me. An 11 year old can compete in L3-L10 and Xcel in USAG. I do not want my gymnastics team getting blown out of the water. Also...I am a team coach...we compete against other teams. The A and B teams are all on the same team.

If soccer doesn't put 7 year olds with 12 year olds...why should we?

I actually think it is identical to soccer and basketball and baseball. I just had a boy from my team not make the travel baseball team...he was not happy. The boys all know that the travel team is made up of the best kids and it is coached by a former pro baseball player. It is expected that the travel team will be better than the regular town little league team.

But I think you are contradicting yourself here. First you are saying that your A team and your B team are both on the same team and will compete at the same meets, and then you're saying it's exactly the same as soccer, etc. where the better kids make the better teams. But the travel team, made up of the "better" players, does not play against the other kids who didn't make the cut. So while maybe, in terms of selection, practice time, etc. you could make the case that it is "the same" as those other sports, when it comes down to the competition, it is COMPLETELY different. Having a Prep Op/Xcell stream and having a USAG stream is probably a better analogy to the travel/non-travel teams on the other sports.

 

[txgymfan]

IMHO, it could work. In our high school there was "regular English"," Advanced English" and "Honors English". Each had different expectations, we all mixed in other classes and at lunch. Some people get upset because they are not in a different group but the school set it up to meet student needs. By the middle of first grade most schools have some kind of "advanced" program for those identified along with "tutoring or remedial work" for those who are identified. Ask any first grader what the top reading (or math) group is and they will tell you even though the groups are labeled by color.

I would suggest making the B team have less hours mandatory with an optional practice to equal the A team hours. Also stress that the two groups will meet different needs. More work on form and basics for those who need it vs more work on uptraining for those ready for that. There is room on the team for everyone but we have said on this board over and over it is about meeting each athletes needs and not always treating them exactly the same. I see the two groups as meeting different needs and the kids and parents will have to deal with difference. Also, parents who think the A team will score higher may be suprised. The A group may be spening that extra time on uptraining, conditioning, dance, etc. They may not do that much better on compulsary moves than the kids focusing extra hard on the current level.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I guess the big difference to me is that all these girls will compete against each other. If you are going to have 2 different groups then they should not be put together to compete against each other because as much as everyone wants to say gymnastics is a "team", the reality is that it is an individual sport and the "B" girls will end up resenting the "A" girls. Human nature.

 

[JBS]

Yes, but I'm guessing the boy was simply not offered a spot on the travel baseball team at all. That is somewhat different than offering a kid a spot on a lesser team, but telling them they are somehow still all part of the same team and will compete with (and against) the kids who got offered the spot on the better team.

Yes...actually he was offered a spot on their other...lower...travel team. He said "no".

Did it ever occur to you that the B kids are leaving because of the way the system was designed? They were not deemed good-enough and maybe eventually got tired of it....

Yes.

 

[JBS]

I'm thinking of it as you have a bunch of girls at age 12, and just say, there are 5 B teamers level 7 and 5 A teamers level 7 in the same gym, on the same team. How does that work for competition. Will the A team compete different meets? Otherwise they would be competing against each other, even if not in the same session, they will be comparing scores....

No...same meets...they would compete as one team. All the kids (and parents) compare scores anyways. Right now I could label all of our kids A and B even though they workout together...the ones I call A team will get most of the team scores and beat the other girls. What's the difference?...everyone knows where everyone else is at. Well...at least the gymnasts do...the parents???

 

[JBS]

imho, it could work. In our high school there was "regular english"," advanced english" and "honors english". Each had different expectations, we all mixed in other classes and at lunch. Some people get upset because they are not in a different group but the school set it up to meet student needs. By the middle of first grade most schools have some kind of "advanced" program for those identified along with "tutoring or remedial work" for those who are identified. Ask any first grader what the top reading (or math) group is and they will tell you even though the groups are labeled by color.

I would suggest making the b team have less hours mandatory with an optional practice to equal the a team hours. Also stress that the two groups will meet different needs. More work on form and basics for those who need it vs more work on uptraining for those ready for that. There is room on the team for everyone but we have said on this board over and over it is about meeting each athletes needs and not always treating them exactly the same. I see the two groups as meeting different needs and the kids and parents will have to deal with difference. Also, parents who think the a team will score higher may be suprised. The a group may be spening that extra time on uptraining, conditioning, dance, etc. They may not do that much better on compulsary moves than the kids focusing extra hard on the current level.

bingo......

 

[JBS]

I guess the big difference to me is that all these girls will compete against each other. If you are going to have 2 different groups then they should not be put together to compete against each other because as much as everyone wants to say gymnastics is a "team", the reality is that it is an individual sport and the "B" girls will end up resenting the "A" girls. Human nature.

This already occurs without an A and B team....human nature.

 

[JBS]

I would love to hear from some more coaches on this one.

Not to be rude parents....but you are telling me things that I deal with everyday as team director of a team with no A and B team. I'm not looking to be fair...I'm looking to run a team with happy gymnasts. The difference is...I know that every gymnast will not be happy on our team...I am looking for the ones that will...the ones that have the same vision as us.

 

[marie83]

We have quite a large squad, by British Standards - 34 gymnasts from age 5-16
There are some gymnasts within the squad who need pushing more, but due to large groups, lack of time and lack of space they don't have that opportunity. We have basically split the groups so that the girls who need pushing more have been asked to drop 2 of their usual sessions and attend 2 different sessions with the same coach, just as a smaller group.
This way they get the same coach as the others and everyone still does the same amount of hours, but the girls who need pushing get to do the more difficult skills they need and the other gymnasts get more attention and get pushed harder anyway because they are in a smaller group.
Some of the parents weren't happy about this at first, but in the end you have to do what is in the best interests of the gymnasts - when we explained that actually their child is better off as she is now in a smaller group they were pacified. As others have pointed out, gymnasts in 'group A' will probably beat gymnasts in 'group B' in competition, but that would probably have happened anyway as they are the more capable ones in the first place.
We also do as you said and have no problem with moving the gymnasts back and forth between groups.

ETA: It's quite nice that our girls all still get to train together twice a week in their 'old' groups so they all still feel part of the same group.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

This already occurs without an A and B team....human nature.

True that this already occurs but to make the B girls know that you already consider them B girls is the part that is hard to accept.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

JBS, I know you wanted coaches opinions, but I just have to add my comment to this whole thread.

There is a very successful, highly competitive gym near me that actually splits the tracks for girls beginning at L4. Although the gym is very, very successful and continues to place girls at Nationals and win college scholarships, the competition among the PARENTS, yes, PARENTS, is intense. Esp. once the girls reach L7!! If the child doesn't make it into "Suzie's" training group, you'd think World War III has begun.

At any rate, the gym is very highly respected around the country and, as I've said, is very, very successful. There are also no "secrets" as to who is in what group, and of course, girls can fluctuate between groups as their motivation and skills develop, or as interest wanes.

The gym has been operating this way for years, everyone knows how it's done and it's truly not an issue, except for some of the very vocal parents.

 

[gymgal]

I think people are getting hung up on the girls from two different teams (in the same gym) competing against each other.

Reality check - these girls are likely to be in different age groups for awards anyway. It is more likely that Team A girls are going to be younger than team B girls. And even if they happen to be in the same age group, if team A girl is already advanced (regardless of whether a gym splits them or not) she's generally going to score higher. We can't be naive to think that our girls (or us as parents) don't know this.

I kind of liken this to girls repeating a level. Presumably they will score much higher the second year around. Is it fair that these girls will compete alongside a 1st year at the level?

JBS - I think people have given you a clear message about how parents view this type of system. It doesn't mean it should not be done but in the attempt to not alienate your families, setting up the system as specific as possible might help - this team is for girls we feel will be able to fast track to optionals in 2 or 3 years instead of 4-5yrs. And the criteria are current skill level, dedication, ability of parent to commit to the more intense schedule (as seen by previous attendance), etc. You can come up with a list of pertinent factors.

I think if presented in this light, many parents would specifically choose to not go that route for their girls. Girls competing against each other in this format of team (if they were in the same age group) would have a totally different mindset - she is training differently. Of course her scores are going to be different.

 

[gymcoach26]

I think there is a bigger issue at play here. A better solution might be to set stricter standards and requirements for making your team. You've said that you take kids on your team that other gyms wouldn't take and that your excel girls are just learning robhs. I actually love that you are giving these girls chances that they were not given at other gyms, however it seems like you are trying to have 2 completely different philosophies/ missions at once. One that is to offer a gymnastics team opportunity to most children even when they may not be ready for team and another that wants to produce high level gymnasts, possibly pretty quickly and pick out early talent. It seems like your team is moving in the direction of number 2.

Here's my experience from what I've seen work with our kids and program... We have 2 tracks- a JO and an excel. Neither team needs to be divided any further. All of these kids are talented, some just want more. Usually those ones go to JO. If a kid starts in excel and later wants more hours and commitment, they can go JO later. The reason they are able to do this is because the teams are close enough equivalent. (So a kid without ROBHS would never be considered for either team). Is that unfair that we don't offer kids without this a spot on team?, I don't think so. They can choose to continue working hard in the pre-team group or they can go to a team alternative program. Not sure if my point is coming across clear or not.

If a kid does not want to practice the required hours or is not working hard, why take them on your team in the first place?

 

[my4buffaloes]

Our gym has an A track and a B track. There are issues with jealousy among the parents for sure. The A track gets more hours (same money though) and more coaches for less kids. Yet they are expected to all compete together at meets and get along great. For the most part the kids do. From what I can tell though - the scores are not much different from the A and B girls, in fact many B girls score consistently higher than the A girls which makes the parents really wonder about the logic behind separating them. I don't get angry about it, but it makes me shake my head in confusion and I wouldn't recommend doing it the way my gym is doing it.

 

[sportzmomov3]

It seems that you want to take your program to the next level and no parent should have issue with this.

I have always believed and still do, that there is a gym for everyone, but not every gym is for everyone.

As gymcoach26 says, perhaps the solution isn't creating tracks but clearly communicating to gymnasts & parents alike what the expectations are to be a team member on both the USAG JO and USAIGC (Xcel?) teams. Also, is the goal to have a very strong compulsory pool to draw from and develop into the optional team, thereby keeping gymnasts longer? Again, I don't see anything wrong with this.

Stating the maybe not-so-obvious: separation occurs naturally. Why do you think that there is such a huge drop off with every move up in level? It gets harder and not everyone is cut out to make it. And it isn't any ONE thing that dictates, it's a complex combination of many factors that allows the strongest to survive.

Good luck!

 

[maryRS]

Except the A team will be trained on a different track? Different coaches, hours? If not what is the point? So the A team will have an advantage over the B team in that regard no matter what.

No...same meets...they would compete as one team. All the kids (and parents) compare scores anyways. Right now I could label all of our kids A and B even though they workout together...the ones I call A team will get most of the team scores and beat the other girls. What's the difference?...everyone knows where everyone else is at. Well...at least the gymnasts do...the parents???