WAG Toe shoot to support

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I have a couple new level 6s working these in conjunction with clearhips and am having trouble getting them to lift their hips and open their shoulders as they come out as opposed to shooting their toes straight backward. They can land in a support below horizontal with hips open, feet stretched behind them but I'm hoping to get more of a hip-up support (with the wrists, shoulders and hips in-line). I've tried a lot of different verbal explanations but it isn't helping. They can do it when I spot them but not on their own. I am unsure of the exact motion that they should be using from underneath the bar and on the way up. How long do the feet stay on? How much should they circle before lifting the hips and opening the shoulders? Is the action of the skill more of a circle than in a clearhip or does it have the same down-up concept (drop under quickly, open up quickly)? Any drills I should be doing? Thanks!
 
I'm really not sure I understand the first part of your post but check what part of their foot they putting on the bar. It needs to be their toes/ball of the foot. Not the middle arch which is what a lot of kids want to do.

Secondly, have them start standing on a block that is under the bar (like half the height of the bar) so they have to do a late drop. Like half of the drop is done for them. It's a little more challenging to start. Push shoulders down so shoulders and hips are in line in kind of a 90 degree stand. Then jump toes under the bar. Strap bar is best. With pvc to start, then gloves. Make sure they don't do a skin the cat or make sure it's low enough that if they do their feet are down. and they know what to do at the top (don't twist).

But again I'm not sure I understand what you're describing with the hips up. It sounds like you're thinking of it as a stalder with toes on but that's not gonna work. They shouldn't be doing a pike circle and then jumping/pressing to handstand once their butt is on top of the bar. The toes should shoot up on the upswing when their hips are on the side of the bar, not on top. A stalder is different because you're closer to the bar.
 
Toes go on between 4-5 oclock, off by 9 oclock. Work late drops from a spotting block and back drop handstands with a tramp bar. They do take lots of spotting! The errors to look for are shoulder shrugging, head out, knees bent and too much foot on the bar.
 
It sounds like we've been focusing on the right things so I'll just keep trying. The rules on the judging the angle for this skill for 6 state that the judge looks at the height of the hips when in support, so that's why I was trying not to shoot the feet. Yes, like a stalder. But that's not possible? What should the action be as they are shooting off if we're just aiming for horizontal? Is it any later than 9:00? What do the shoulders and hips do?
Thanks!
 
You should be aiming for their feet to bee of by the same point as you would if they were going to take the skill to handstand.

We don't typically work these until they have a clear hip to handstand, so our goal with this skill is always to take it to a handstand. If their feet are on the bar too long, they will not get credit for the toe on, but instead for a stoop circle, from my understanding.
 
Is a straight leg sole circle all the way around a prerequisite? One girl can do it, and doesn't shoot as well, the other does not but shoots better so it doesn't seem to matter.
 
I don't feel like it is necessary to be able to keep the legs straight all the way around in order to be able to do a good toe on. As long as they have the pike flexibility necessary to get the feet between the hands and the shoulder strength to open up at the right time, you should be in good shape.

That said, there is a lot more going on and a lot more to a toe on than there is to a clear hip. That is why we prefer to master a clear hip to handstand before working too seriously on other circling elements. The girls will play around with drills, but for the most part, all of our kids will compete clear hips in level 5, 7, and even 8.
 
They are working clearhips as well but these two particular kids seemed at first to be making more progress with toe shoots than with clearhips. We will obviously compete whichever is better.
 
BarCoach; Sounds like you have gotten the sage advise of late drop, "sitting into" the bar ( then pancaking into a pike pancake shape) and then a grip shift as opening the skill.

I call the beginning stage a "Glut-shoot." Circle the bar, grip shift and lift the feet off the bar only at the top of the bar and kip out. I start the girls on a strap bar and then work to the UBs. " Glut shoot" earlier and kick out to a block behind the bar. This is the perfect time, for me, to work the late drop. Ground drills for the late step on really work to reinforce the shape and actions. Cast to HS then "Glut Shoot" to a very high block. Teaching and working the grip change works at this stage. Then spotting Toe-On HS. Over-over-over-over. Then spotting series of Toe-on HS. Over-over-over-over.

Bar Coach, On the way to getting it to open to HS, such as performed to code at L6 shape conditioning and core pike/opening strength are a requisite, IMO. In-bar skills require the body control, strength and shape changing speed with the common elements of circling and opening. Opening of a clear hip, stalder and toe-on will all benefit from the shape/opening conditioning. My challenges are when my athletes are in times when they are growing more rapidly. At these times the skills are difficult to maintain, much less improve. Conditioning assignments increase, with the gentle reminder that "this too, in good time shall pass." Strength gains are hard won and I try to reward strength gains with the same vigor I do as skill gains.

As to 1 ft at a time or both - I here the debate a lot with coaches. My athletes have preferred the 1 ft at a time. Since it begins in HS and ends in HS - I am good.

I hope I contributed to the discussion. Best, Eric -
 
Is a straight leg sole circle all the way around a prerequisite? One girl can do it, and doesn't shoot as well, the other does not but shoots better so it doesn't seem to matter.

It really helps, but in gymnastics a lot of these pregressions are co-requisites, not necessarily pre-requesites. If they aren't used to the amount of body tension it takes to get around in a sole circle with straight legs, it will be hard to create that same tension in the toe shoot.
 
Sometimes I think it would be easier just to go to handstand. We'll keep working. Thanks.

I teach them straight to handstand, but do the different height progressions with the CH . When they are just starting, I stand facing them on the other side of the bar and stop them/slow them down at 9 oclock by catching and then supporting their shoulders. From that point, they are pressing up to a handstand. I think this is a pretty standard way to spot/teach.
 
As to 1 ft at a time or both - I here the debate a lot with coaches. My athletes have preferred the 1 ft at a time. Since it begins in HS and ends in HS - I am good. -

I have come up with a new gym rule on this. If they look like a kid with future stalders, they will learn a 2 ft drop. If they have the wrong body type for a stalder, they can do the 1 foot drop. My kid who currently stalders could not learn the 2 ft drop until she first learned the 1 foot, but she was told from the beginning not to get used to the 1 foot drop. Before she had the 1 foot drop, she got very frustrated with the 2 foot. Once she had the 1 foot, she quickly learned the 2 foot without frustration. I'm not sure how typical this is!
 
step in is easier to teach, but the two foot is the same entry as a stalder. And i have noticed that when my kids switched to a two foot entry they actually had more consistent stalders.
 
I have a couple new level 6s working these in conjunction with clearhips and am having trouble getting them to lift their hips and open their shoulders as they come out as opposed to shooting their toes straight backward. They can land in a support below horizontal with hips open, feet stretched behind them but I'm hoping to get more of a hip-up support (with the wrists, shoulders and hips in-line). I've tried a lot of different verbal explanations but it isn't helping. They can do it when I spot them but not on their own. I am unsure of the exact motion that they should be using from underneath the bar and on the way up. How long do the feet stay on? How much should they circle before lifting the hips and opening the shoulders? Is the action of the skill more of a circle than in a clearhip or does it have the same down-up concept (drop under quickly, open up quickly)? Any drills I should be doing? Thanks!

This is very hard. Our kids that can do what I think you are talking about always get the actual toe hand about 3 turns later. Late drop is key...down-up concept is key.
 
Thanks everyone. We will begin work on them again today, after a break for Labor Day. I will try some of your suggestions.
 
I have a couple new level 6s working these in conjunction with clearhips and am having trouble getting them to lift their hips and open their shoulders as they come out as opposed to shooting their toes straight backward. They can land in a support below horizontal with hips open, feet stretched behind them but I'm hoping to get more of a hip-up support (with the wrists, shoulders and hips in-line). I've tried a lot of different verbal explanations but it isn't helping. They can do it when I spot them but not on their own. I am unsure of the exact motion that they should be using from underneath the bar and on the way up. How long do the feet stay on? How much should they circle before lifting the hips and opening the shoulders? Is the action of the skill more of a circle than in a clearhip or does it have the same down-up concept (drop under quickly, open up quickly)? Any drills I should be doing? Thanks!

what exactly do you have them doing?
 

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