Parents Trust in the process?

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ollieblueeyes

Proud Parent
This has been an interesting meet season. DD is competing lvl4. Last year she score pretty consistently in the upper 36 range. This year she's hovering around 35 and placing much lower than last year. She seems to be stalled in the score department. She has her first meet this week where she placed on nothing. DD has consistently one of the top scorers on her team this year.

Listening to other parents it's seems to be that the whole team is having a similar season. Across the board girls accustomed to placing well are scoring 1-2 points lower than last year. The new level coach is not as experienced and less structured as previous. There are many parents grumbling. I suspect many are checking out new teams.

DD is reporting making skills such as flyaway to pit, casting to straddle handstand, ROBHSFT, BWO on beam. She is definitely looking ahead skill wise and not only running routines. I am thinking that they are spending more time getting ready for optional rather than perfecting compulsory routines. After the last meet I am wondering if this is the case or if there is an issue here. Head coach works with the group on a regular basis and assured me DD was doing great and a pleasure to coach.

The optional team is fairly large and typically places in the top 3 at meets and sends several to regionals every year.

Does this sound like there is an issue or are they just following a different plan than the other gyms?
 
For many coaches L4 (old L5) scores in the mid 30s with good fundamentals and skill progression is fine for working on next level. It really depends a lot on "why" the scores are not 36+...if its a foot here a wobble there it really doesn't matter long term - but if its bigger issues then a problem. Each level of compulsory does get harder scoring-wise - old 6/new 5 is a bear!!! Many kiddos get in and out of it with scores in the 33-35 range and ROCK level 7!

If a kid sticks with it and is successful they will eventually either correct the "little" things, or stall out in mid-optionals...some coaches want to take the time for that to happen in compulsory levels, some are more in favor of a couple years of L7/L8 for polishing (and I'm not talking about kids with 31s moving up - I've seen that and i don't really get USAG setting the bar quite that low - except we did have one girl who simply stunk at old 6 but has done medium well at L7...and will get to L8 and likely beyond safely, happily and medaling in some events...in general, I'm thinking more of the kids scoring in your daughters range (34-35?) in new l4/L5....most in our region are solid gymnasts, just not fantastic ones!)

If you are comfortable with the HC and your daughter is enjoying gym...I'd let it ride...
 
There is a huge change from new 3 (old 4) to new 4 (old 5) score wise. I find the judges just weren't as picky in old 4 as they were in old 5 and now new 4- lol. As the above poster said- watch out- new Level5 is worse! Judges are really text picky in Compulsories as the Levels increase and it doesn't bode well for all gymnasts score wise. Hang in there and don't jump ship.
 
It is hard not to get caught up in parental grumbling at the gym, but if you are seeing that the team has successful optionals, that the HC thinks your DD is on the right path to get there, and she is happy and safe in the gym, I would say to trust the process. It's great that she is uptraining!
 
While it is nice to have the big score and placements, the long-term progression and success requires uptraining. It sounds like there may be a little focus on the little elements of compulsories in exchange for uptraining - that is actually a good thing. Logic tells me that you DD and her teamates probably have a good foundation and that is not what is affecting their scores. Otherwise it would be tough to build a BT onto a weak BHS. That being said, I would want to make sure that the uptraining is safe and not rushed. If good safe uptraining was occuring, then I would not worry too much about scores at this point.
 
So, how do you know if it's text or form issues? How do you the fundamentals are good? From here I have inferred here strong optionals = strong fundamentals and good program. Is that true?

I am typically a stay your course type of gal, but my sad DD really got to me.... The grumbling is getting to me!
 
I would ask DD why she feels so sad? I do understand that its fun to win awards - but maybe if you can help her re-frame her goals she can see this as progress - after all, moving up a level ALWAYS means progress and achievement!! Did she also move into a harder age group? That can lead to less awards too....as can the choices of meets the coach makes...all of which is to say, if a kid is set on winning (and again, of course, winning IS FUN) or scores as what makes them happy they are unlikely to be satisfied with all the bumps that will come in gymnastics AND life...

The coaches will know exactly what your dd is getting deductions for - if they at all know what they are doing. A simple question of whether its text errors or fundamentals...but really, not JUST text errors - could also be maturity with dance, inconsistency between meets, etc....at that level DD would fall almost every meet on something - maybe her cartwheel, maybe her dismount, maybe her squat on, rarely her floor stuff but once on a simple leap...at STATE no less....she actually could do all those things with good fundamental form and strength but was young and didn't have the comp thing down yet! Consistent scores across all events in the 9s at meets has only come with more time and maturity. This year at 11 her "bad" meets are .7 lower all around than her "good" meets.

The skills at new 4/old 5 are significantly harder than old 4/new 3 - that's why so many teams don't do L3 at all....sounds to me like you and she should be proud that she went from a great L3/old 4 to a good L4/old 5 - that in itself does not always happen!
 
I doubt there's any issue at at, and suspect during next season anyone with their dd's long term happiness in mind will worship the ground this coach walks on.

This is wise and forward looking......
" ....DD is reporting making skills such as flyaway to pit, casting to straddle handstand, ROBHSFT, BWO on beam. She is definitely looking ahead skill wise and not only running routines. I am thinking that they are spending more time getting ready for optional..... "

You may not realize it yet, but every level upward brings a new set of challenges and circumstances that can end up beating kids down. The most obvious of these is the increased difficulty of the routines, but the L4 routines are the least of the challenges. Other issues with the next few levels are:

Your child will be competing with/against kids who train in excess of 16, and up to 25 hours under coaches that have level 10 figured into every child's future. They'll use some of those hours to train drills and skills two to three years into the future, and use the remaining time to assure top performances in the current level.

Every level has repeaters who have already enjoyed a comfortable competitive season a year earlier at the level your child just moved into, and some of those repeaters are there primarily to have a dominating season and bring home medals that are used to gloss their program as "the area's top gym" or similar claims. While there's nothing wrong with a gym taking pride in their athlete's accomplishments, it's very wrong to have them repeat for the sake of the gym's reputation.

The attrition rate increases with each level as well. Chances to place are going to be reduced when fewer kids compete in a group because the award structure is frequently based on the number of competitors in a group. Some parents may look at the size of the group and happily proclaim their dd has a better chance of placing high in a field of 18 than when in a larger field of 25. What they fail to understand is the group is smaller because many of last years middle of the road or struggling kids have repeated the level or left the sport, and the 18 remaining kids are capable and "hardened" veterans.

All of this adds up to deciding the best course to proceed toward the future. Coaches can give up and train solely to compete the level the kids are at. Other coaches may prefer to work toward the future while keeping the kids "in the game" at the current level. Well of course there's always the option of requiring the kids train 20 hours a week, with 9 spent on compulsory work and 4.5 spent on up training, and 6.5 on things like specific strength, flexibility, shapes, and warm up drill work.

I hope that explains it well enough that you and the rest can accept that every choice made in, or for the present determines the future in a profound way, and that many choices for short term glory require the child pay a price........ and it gets pretty painful for them when the realize there's been nothing of substance behind the curtains all the while "Oz" was speaking of glory and a bright future.

There may be parent's who can't grasp that their child won't be among the top five of that group of 18 through her entire career, and react by grumbling about the coaching. Ignore them, tell them they need to consider the big picture, and pat them on the back as they head off to "a winning gym" and leave your child with fewer kids to split the coach's time with, and parents in the upper deck that both "get it" and support what may be a very promising coach, no matter his/her age.

In gymnastics..... there are no ruby slippers.
 
Well thank you for all your replies. To answer a few questions, DD is actually 12 and only been competing for 2 years, on team 3. I think her dance is very pretty to my untrained and biased eye so I don't think it's that. Her age grouping has not changed. I think the reason she was sad yesterday was that her ego was bruised, plain and simple. Also, she had her first fall of the season on the cartwheel. She was upset about that. (I reminded her an 8.6 with a fall was pretty darn good). She placed very close to the bottom of her group and they gave 100% participation medals. . Even before I knew where she would end up I was thinking how it would be tough to stand in those last place spots on stage with a smile on your face. She did it and I was very proud of her!

My comment on the younger coach was more about discipline. She is young and doesn't really run the practices in a disciplined manner. The old lvl4 coCh ran a tight ship and I wondered if the girls were getting lax in the details. She seems to work well with DD on teaching skills and giving DD courage so by no means was I saying she was a bad coach.

DD is running up against a lot of repeaters but pointing that out to her seems like sour grapes. It's something we don't talk about a lot. We do have gyms that have girls competing 1-2 levels below what they are training. Again something we don't focus on. She loves up training and if she could just train and not compete, she would be a happy girl.

I guess you have re-confirmed what I was thinking. This is a well est. program that trained my friends growing up. So the process is solid. I will not let the grumbling effect me and my DD. This gym can take her as far as her time/talent/commitment will take her.

Thanks for the reality check.
 
I doubt there's any issue at at, and suspect during next season anyone with their dd's long term happiness in mind will worship the ground this coach walks on.

This is wise and forward looking......
" ....DD is reporting making skills such as flyaway to pit, casting to straddle handstand, ROBHSFT, BWO on beam. She is definitely looking ahead skill wise and not only running routines. I am thinking that they are spending more time getting ready for optional..... "

You may not realize it yet, but every level upward brings a new set of challenges and circumstances that can end up beating kids down. The most obvious of these is the increased difficulty of the routines, but the L4 routines are the least of the challenges. Other issues with the next few levels are:

Your child will be competing with/against kids who train in excess of 16, and up to 25 hours under coaches that have level 10 figured into every child's future. They'll use some of those hours to train drills and skills two to three years into the future, and use the remaining time to assure top performances in the current level.

Every level has repeaters who have already enjoyed a comfortable competitive season a year earlier at the level your child just moved into, and some of those repeaters are there primarily to have a dominating season and bring home medals that are used to gloss their program as "the area's top gym" or similar claims. While there's nothing wrong with a gym taking pride in their athlete's accomplishments, it's very wrong to have them repeat for the sake of the gym's reputation.

The attrition rate increases with each level as well. Chances to place are going to be reduced when fewer kids compete in a group because the award structure is frequently based on the number of competitors in a group. Some parents may look at the size of the group and happily proclaim their dd has a better chance of placing high in a field of 18 than when in a larger field of 25. What they fail to understand is the group is smaller because many of last years middle of the road or struggling kids have repeated the level or left the sport, and the 18 remaining kids are capable and "hardened" veterans.

All of this adds up to deciding the best course to proceed toward the future. Coaches can give up and train solely to compete the level the kids are at. Other coaches may prefer to work toward the future while keeping the kids "in the game" at the current level. Well of course there's always the option of requiring the kids train 20 hours a week, with 9 spent on compulsory work and 4.5 spent on up training, and 6.5 on things like specific strength, flexibility, shapes, and warm up drill work.

I hope that explains it well enough that you and the rest can accept that every choice made in, or for the present determines the future in a profound way, and that many choices for short term glory require the child pay a price........ and it gets pretty painful for them when the realize there's been nothing of substance behind the curtains all the while "Oz" was speaking of glory and a bright future.

There may be parent's who can't grasp that their child won't be among the top five of that group of 18 through her entire career, and react by grumbling about the coaching. Ignore them, tell them they need to consider the big picture, and pat them on the back as they head off to "a winning gym" and leave your child with fewer kids to split the coach's time with, and parents in the upper deck that both "get it" and support what may be a very promising coach, no matter his/her age.

In gymnastics..... there are no ruby slippers.
Thank you!! finally an answer to why scores don't matter that I can wrap my head around. And the reason why placement for my daughter is getting more difficult. I feel like, based on your comment, that very good choices are being made for her, but her scores are not reflective of that.

Can you please explain when scores, and placement, will start to matter? I feel like this question has been asked a million times on CB but I guess I just still don't get it.
 
Thank you!! finally an answer to why scores don't matter that I can wrap my head around. And the reason why placement for my daughter is getting more difficult. I feel like, based on your comment, that very good choices are being made for her, but her scores are not reflective of that.

Can you please explain when scores, and placement, will start to matter? I feel like this question has been asked a million times on CB but I guess I just still don't get it.

When you've been there and done that often enough to know what your score would be with, or without a judge's evaluation, or when needing to qualify for regionals, easterns/westerns, JO nationals, or an elite qualifier. Until that point the process should be about leaning to do what needs to be done to get skills, polish them, and all that other altruistic "come on" chatter.
 
When you've been there and done that often enough to know what your score would be with, or without a judge's evaluation, or when needing to qualify for regionals, easterns/westerns, JO nationals, or an elite qualifier. Until that point the process should be about leaning to do what needs to be done to get skills, polish them, and all that other altruistic "come on" chatter.

Okay, then one last question, ...sorry to be a p.i.t.a. (seriously), but how does a parent then measure the success of their child if the parents 1) spend little time in the gym watching, because that's what's recommended; 2) can't use scores to measure success, because it's all relative; 3) doesn't ask a lot of questions of their kid, because that's frowned upon too, adding undue pressure ....and finally 4) doesn't question coaches because our reputation as parents is at stake.... and then we are asked to enjoy the journey. What journey?? From most of the advice from coaches on chalk bucket it seems like I'm asked not to participate in the the journey at all except for drop off, and pick up and the first of the month when I write the check. Sometimes I'm surprised no coach has suggested parents not attend meets, although I do remember a post, not too long ago, where a coach joked it would be nice sometimes if parents weren't there.
So with all that said....with all these restrictions, how would you recommend us parents go about evaluating ours gymnast's success? IWC - I'm not picking on you. It's a culmination of all the coaches advice on this board, I promise I am asking this respectfully, it's not to offend and I would legitimately love an answer.
 
Actually, there was a time when parents didn't attend meets (wasn't my time though. By then parents were regularly attending every practice as well. Not mine thankfully).
 
Okay, then one last question, ...sorry to be a p.i.t.a. (seriously), but how does a parent then measure the success of their child if the parents 1) spend little time in the gym watching, because that's what's recommended; 2) can't use scores to measure success, because it's all relative; 3) doesn't ask a lot of questions of their kid, because that's frowned upon too, adding undue pressure ....and finally 4) doesn't question coaches because our reputation as parents is at stake.... and then we are asked to enjoy the journey. What journey?? From most of the advice from coaches on chalk bucket it seems like I'm asked not to participate in the the journey at all except for drop off, and pick up and the first of the month when I write the check. Sometimes I'm surprised no coach has suggested parents not attend meets, although I do remember a post, not too long ago, where a coach joked it would be nice sometimes if parents weren't there.
So with all that said....with all these restrictions, how would you recommend us parents go about evaluating ours gymnast's success? IWC - I'm not picking on you. It's a culmination of all the coaches advice on this board, I promise I am asking this respectfully, it's not to offend and I would legitimately love an answer.

you can ask all these questions when she is a 16 year old level 9 or 10. that's the journey. and we can't answer all questions honestly because there is no crystal ball. that's the truth.

and i have recommended that parents not go to all the meets. at some point they need to be independent of their parents unintentional and sometimes negative opinions.

success can only be, and should only be, measured by the coach and athlete. it's not your place to do so. you can't possibly be a part of your child's journey because you will never have to do the work. and at some point if you are over involved, your child will resent your involvement because you can't relate to the copious amount of work that they must do.

and i don't consider any of what you have stated as restrictions. they are recommendations to live by if you want the best chance for your child to become a gymnast.

and i am submitting this respectfully. gymnastics is hard beyond comprehension. all things being equal, the parents job is to support their child and coach. the partnership is dysfunctional at best. and i reiterate, gymnastics is a dysfunctional sport. to watch what they go thru to accomplish what they do is not logical. if it were logical, all would progress at the same rate and arrive to their final destination together and equal. knowing that there are 53,000 level 5's and 800 bona fide level 10's tells it all.

and eventually, and as they get older, they don't want to talk to you about practice. we teach them to leave their baggage at the door when they come to practice, and leave their gym baggage in the locker room when they leave. and at 15? they're too tired to talk about practice. they just want to eat, do homework and go to bed to start the whole thing over again the next day. by that age they don't understand what all the questions are about at their job when they don't bug you about your job or what you did all day.

i'm not pulling this stuff out of my ear. THIS is what they tell us. :)
 
ndependent of their parents unintentional and sometimes negative opinions.

you can't possibly be a part of your child's journey because you will never have to do the work. and at some point if you are over involved, your child will resent your involvement because you can't relate to the copious amount of work that they must do.

Darn skippy! If I may say so myself. Dunno, you just reminded me of the several conversations that took place between myself and dear old mom. In a quest for support and and validation, I would hint at my goals and dreams, and without fail she'd leave me with the impression that those goals and dreams were somewhat over the top. Damn, it's a good thing I never told her I wanted to compete at NCAA nationals.... until I'd all ready qualified.

Listening to her well intended advice only became bearable when I stopped including anything but the slam dunk dreams of life, like I want to be a firefighter when I grow up. Geez, she'd rather I dashed through burning buildings.......

Oh well. I still love her..... just the way she is.
 
you can't possibly be a part of your child's journey because you will never have to do the work.

Okay-thanks for that honest response. You and I can agree the process is very dysfunctional. So then can I make a recommendation??, there needs to be a warning label that comes with the 'mom & tots' class (you remember the class, the one I enrolled my daughter in so we could spend some bonding time together) that states, "We will make every attempt to develop your child to be a successful member of our gymnastics team, but in doing so you may find yourself to be an empty-nester by the time your daughter is 10. Be careful what you wish for" :)
 
success can only be, and should only be, measured by the coach and athlete. it's not your place to do so. you can't possibly be a part of your child's journey because you will never have to do the work. and at some point if you are over involved, your child will resent your involvement because you can't relate to the copious amount of work that they must do.

and i am submitting this respectfully. gymnastics is hard beyond comprehension. all things being equal, the parents job is to support their child and coach.

As a parent I get all of this and agree in principle, but as I have said in nearly every one of these threads, there needs to be a better way for parents to determine whether they can trust the coach to hold up his or her end of the bargain. Not every coach out there is a dunno or an iwannacoach. There are plenty of coaches who spend half of practice on their cell phones, or don't know how to teach even if they were successful gymnasts themselves, or are verbally or emotionally abusive. My job as a parent isn't just to support the coach. It is also to make sure that my kid is working with a coach whom I can support. That is the part that is so difficult for us parents.

My daughter and her coach are responsible for her success in the gym, but my responsibility as a parent is even bigger than that. I am responsible for safeguarding her physical and emotional well-being and providing her with the best possible opportunity to grow into a happy and productive adult. It is my job to make sure that all of the adults in her life are contributing to that and not working against it.
 
"My job as a parent isn't just to support the coach. It is also to make sure that my kid is working with a coach whom I can support. That is the part that is so difficult for us parents."

I think this is key. We, as parents, need to be able to relinquish control and be able to trust that the coach is acting in the best interest of our child. Only if/when we are truly able to do this, will our child be able to develop to her true potential. If we don't trust the coach/program, we need to be looking elsewhere.
 
"My job as a parent isn't just to support the coach. It is also to make sure that my kid is working with a coach whom I can support. That is the part that is so difficult for us parents."

I think this is key. We, as parents, need to be able to relinquish control and be able to trust that the coach is acting in the best interest of our child. Only if/when we are truly able to do this, will our child be able to develop to her true potential. If we don't trust the coach/program, we need to be looking elsewhere.

Yes, so then, for the coaches, how do we get to the point where we trust you with our children without watching practices, asking our kids too many questions, or worrying about scores? I am not new to this game, and I do trust my DD's coaches, but part of that is due to their willingness to communicate with me. I'm not sure I've ever heard one coach on this site extoll the importance of coach/parent communication, and yet it's something that parents bring up over and over and over again.
 

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